Ruger, a few questions for you... - Page 3

John if you are so versed in the bible why do you always have to provide links to someone else instead of using scripture?  The bible should be the answer not some televangelist.

Admin~~ I never said 75% of people needed "mental" meds. I just said meds,, However, I do believe that 75% of "people here" need mental meds lol ,, jmo!! Lol 

the whole parent analogy doesn't work for me unless you mean god is the ultimate absent parent.

 

does yahew even have a wife??

I never said anything of wild animals, but if you are saying that the only way for us to be "morally" acceptable is through the work of Christ then I agree.

Well then, without "given" morality, what would you say we would be?

I know the mind of God, in as much as He has chosen to reveal that through His word. Past that, I do not, and have not claimed to know anything of the mind of a God

Cop out, not an answer.

Please give me an example of the said "contrary attributes" that I mentioned.

Suffering/benevolence, suffering/omnipotence, suffering/omniscience.  Suffereing alone makes no sense when compared to all three attributes you ascribe.

What I will support is that when God ordains even that which to us **seems inconsistent with the way we perceive right and wrong,

Hence the logic and profundity in the Sam Harris quote I provided.

Anything that "seems inconsistent with the way we perceive rights and wrong" is inconsistent.  Thus, there is no way to really know what is good and what is evil, if when what you perceive as evil is being done by this "God" with no explanation and no justification.  You then have no way of distinguishing what is right and wrong.

God is always just in His actions.  And you're sure of this how? 

The reason is because He is God, and has the rightful place to do that which He sees fit with what He has created, to bring about His will.

No, that's not a reason, because you have no evidence that you are following the "right" God, based on a book, written by men, that says it was inspired by something you have no way of knowing or proving.  That's just evil in itself.

I know you won't like this answer,

It's not a matter of my liking it, it's a matter of expecting an actual answer, which it is not...

but it is something you accept or don't.

No reasonable person would or should accept it.

It has been said a million other times, that without faith it is impossible to believe such things much less accept them.

Even a parent does bring about that which is unpleasant and at times uncomfortable actions towards their children.

We no longer need parents when we reach adulthood, that's the whole point.  Some of us just can't let go of a parent figure, some of us can. 

We administer discipline, take them for immunizations, restrict them, etc. To them it appears "mean" however we do that which we know is in their best interests.  

And then you indoctrinate them to keep them in line when you're not there, after they've grown.  Makes no sense.  If you're raised right, with empathy toward others and a positive cause for respect, they should be able to function without an invisible parent figure.  That's what growing up is all about.

Where one ends and the other begins is difficult to distinguish ,

Why and why should it be?  Makes no sense.

but we know that all things are within Gods sovereign control.

No we don't, that's the whole point of this discussion.

It is hard to accept in light of our human perception to suffering.

No, not hard to accept, impossible to accept in light of the attributes ascribed.  It's a contradiction and just waving a magic wand and saying you "can't" know isn't an acceptabel answer.

Not exactly clear on your point, but I impose nothing on anyone.

Yes, you do impose it on everyone when propose to include those who don't accept it.  It's kind of like the Mormons baptising people after they're dead, without consent of the family. 

God has a standard and that standard can be satisfied through Christ's atonement.  

When the motives are hidden and the words in the book confusing, contradictory and contrary.

We need Christ's atonement because we are inherently enemies of God, God haters, and unable due to desire and ability, to meet His holy standard.

And you have no way of knowing if you're actually following God or being deceived, since the direction can only come from one source and it is unclear.

Is this about Joanro?

No, it's about you.

Well, I won't be signing on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Travels ~ it's futile to continue as you do not accept scripture as the inerrant and inspired word of God. Period !  I will always bring you back to scripture to support my beliefs,,, so it's a vicious circle,, 

You want answers to be convinced of what you can't posses without faith. And faith is not obtainable without Gods intervening on your unbelieving behalf. You are in a predicament lol,

You stated that if I answered your questions to your satisfaction,  you would be converted right then lol, hate to break it to you Travels ,but it doesn't work that way.

 I knew this would be the outcome when I posted to your comment, but I believe in giving an answer when asked. Not to say it will be accepted or otherwise agreed with, but I give an answer nonetheless. 

You have a great mind Travels and I admire you for it, but like others with the same it will not be enough to obtain what you seek. And a great mind never saved one man's soul. ,,,,,:) 

 

 

 

Thanks Ruger, I appreciate the conversation.  It might help you to understand where I and others are coming from.  I do understand where you're coming from, I just don't understand how you got there.  It's not in my make-up to just accept things, never has been ---> drove my mother straight up the wall, still does, because shes can't understand my point of view.  But that's okay, because I do understand hers :)  I like things that make sense and evidence helps.  I would never give myself over to anyone or anything, on any say-so.  I've always been pretty much independent about a lot of things in my life, change doesn't scare me.  It might throw me for a loop when it's sudden and drastic, but that's when I learn the most, mostly about myself and what I'm made of, so it's okay.  I learn from every mistake I make and I trust no one like I trust myself.  If that' makes me evil, then I'm evil, LOL.  I'm the most benign evil person I know.  I'll remain in charge and in control of my own destiny and that doesn't scare me, Death doesn't scare me, like my non-existence before my birth doesn't scare me.  I'll simply no longer be and that's okay.  I'll take the life I have, while I have it, and I'll try to make it as enjoyable for myself and my loved ones as I can, while I'm here.  I'm fine with that, it's other people who seem to have a problem with it.  Religion does not compute, the pieces don't fit, it doesn't matter in my world.  All I can be is the best I can be and I'll never stop learning and never stop loving, until I am no more.  That's all that matters to me and it's enough, because this moment is all any of us really have.

Wherever you find peace, that's the place you should be and it's different for all of us and that should be okay :)  I don't need validation and neither should anybody else.

John I would like to know why you are judging me as a danger and what gives you the biblical right to judge me.  Since there is One Judge Jesus.

Ruger, can I ask one question arising from your conversation with Travels ?

Why, when you got to the part about 'parental discipline' did you take a swerve away

from the question ?   You went into vaccinations and curfews, AWAY from the issue about

your God letting millions of babies STARVE ?    Nothing  in your explanation justifies that,

but you seem not to confront it .

"Travels ~ it's futile to continue as you do not accept scripture as the inerrant and inspired word of God. Period !  I will always bring you back to scripture to support my beliefs,,, so it's a vicious circle,,"

 

vicious circle indeed, the ultimate circular reasoning.

 

the bible is true because the bible says so, enuff said.

 

once you can do that to your own brain the game is over and the door is open to rationalise anything at all to force fit your belief in belief.

Morning Reggie

 

I didn judge youI just stated what the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

God does not talk to me audibably,He puts it in my mind and it stays there for about fifteen mnutes,

nothing else will enter my mind during that time.

On just using the scripures I did that for years here but was always accused of coming back with scripture,

which seemed to bother every one here.  I also use some  web sites that I totally agree with,because

they can explain and write it a lot better then ill ever be able to do.

I was on the street for many years didnt have web sites had to use just the Bible then.

 Hav a wonderfull day friend.

Its thanksgiving weekend here in Canada.

 

   John