by Centurian on 14 November 2019 - 15:11
by apple on 15 November 2019 - 06:11
by apple on 15 November 2019 - 06:11
by Centurian on 15 November 2019 - 08:11
Apple training so called real life protection is one totally different dimension and dynamic kind of training compared to sport . I realize that you know and understand this . That is why I frown on the word " Protection " when I hold face to face converstations with people. Even in the dog's mind they are two entirely different phenomena , sport protection vs do or die protection. We have to discuss like with like.
So if you do sport , what you have taught your dog to do , it should do . What you have practiced and taught your dog for real life it should do . Training for real life protection do or die situations and conext is entirely different than training for sport where a dog is required to bite a specific manner and/or in a specific way . Agai n we have to talk about lime to like and specific to specific. In sport , usually we teach a dog a prefereed way to bite , even using a bite suit , we gear the dog to bite where we want , where as real life and death , different teaching and interaction comes into play pertaining how , when , where [ meaning in context and also meaning on the body part ] , and why the dog bites .
If we are discussing sport , as I wrote , what you have taught in sport the dog should be able to do equally as well on field , off field , any where equally . Personal protection , although I had some dogs that innately instinctively protected , I never ever ever allow the dog to do anything on it's own accortd that I have not interacted with and taught [ unless I taught an automatic repsonse such as we do in ' defense of handler'] . In that sense even personal protection there should be a reliable and predictable outcome and that dog should in a manner of speaking of how and what was taught , perform anywhere , anytime any place - as we had taught / prepared for those events [ as best as possible that is]. In reference to you last post- you have done exraordinarily well and no doubt I am proud to hear that about you !! Simply our dogs should bite as to how we allow them to and how we taught them to.
Obedience is an altogther different aspect . Because Obedience is an Absolute. For example : Down is down . There is no difference in the down , here -there- anywhere- in any situation -at any time. Down [ taught fully and correctly ] means one and only one thing to the dog ! Any obedience requirement having been correctly taught, the same expectayion we should have … ditto , sit , stand , come , jump over , etc. . By the way ..... there is no such thing as " stay / blieb " . That is a little bit of fautly teaching .
by ValK on 15 November 2019 - 09:11
of given command in exchange for reward. this was favorite topic in past discussions by member prager.
anyway, my point in regard of obedience is about substitution of true obedience by trained trickery to imitate obedience in certain
environment, on certain condition, for certain purpose (to pass trial, to gain points in competition).
by apple on 15 November 2019 - 11:11
by Centurian on 15 November 2019 - 13:11
Apple Competition as you described and by the method that you wrote, I agree , it is not fake . But sometimes some competition or non competition obedience at times can be fake obedience. Depends … if a dog is not willingly , gladly , with the right attitude performing then that dog performs more so out of complying ,which is not by strict definition true obedience.
Valk , Apple's words : " The food and toys enhance the attitude, accuracy and attention of the dog." Is true. The confusion and what I work woith people is not the food per se , but the how , why , when and where the food is used. Instead of food I could also substitute the words : toy or bite tug they are in repsects similar to food and in that sense all makes no difference , makes no difference , except which is item is it that the dog responds to better or prefers . FOOD …. people associate that with being a REWARD . In you line of thinking Valk , here I agree with you … but I would tweak what you wrote by not saying 'over use ' but rather I believe you want to better use the word : " Mis use " ! I wish people would truly understand there is a very important difference between 'Reinforcement' and ' Tools ' for communicating to a dog as opposed to the use of a ' Reward '.
On a level I see what Valk is trying to communicate . 30 years ago all this Positive Training bit , even DVDs came on the market to teach dog training . They showed for example people heeling a dog at heel with every step giving the dog a piece of food . Call that what you will and describe it as you will . I know scientifically and in learning theory what it is , but I pass on that at for the moment. Everyday of practice the heel was the same , until the trial day . At the trial the dog expected the food but none was used [ although one could rub a piece of food on their fingers before the trial heel , just saying ]. So , Valk does have a point , TRICKERY was used and my feeling is that other people unlike Apple , who is quite expert at the use of food and has great understanding of what he does and can do , those other people , they mis-use food , which often still is a form of bribery and trickery . In that sense yes , what can apeear as obedience , that type in which tools and food is used , as Valk refers to , is false obedience. However what Apple describes is true obedience , and is often achieved by what he wrote in his post , if done correctly .
Not always are food , toys and tugs are needed to communicate to a dog. Many times I use my voice , my hands and my legs/feet to model /communicate to the dog.
There are many different ways to teach, not all correct and not all incorrect. . I had written before that years ago the only tool we used to teach a dog were 1. a collar & 2. a leash .. and we were not able to utter a sound not even a word to the dog ! All those dogs gladly , willingly , immediately performed when they were cued to act .
by apple on 15 November 2019 - 14:11
by apple on 15 November 2019 - 14:11
by Centurian on 15 November 2019 - 17:11
So ……. Reinforcement ….. oh boy , oh boy , oh boy . E collars - for precision that is , oh boy , oh boy , oh boy …….
Reinforcement in and of itself , nothing wrong with that in practice . Dogs , people , throughout most of the day we are using reinforcement . But a bit is missing in conjuction with that notion / explanation of ' reinforcement ' when in comes to training our dogs .
E collars , I have seen much of tnis in currrent dog traing for precision : I ask myself : how much to the eyelash precision do I need and the degree of precision that I need , why cannot I get that exact precision , just by conventional interacting with my dog ? I remember seeing Bart Bellon on You Tube …/ and my first thought was .." REALLY ? " . At one point rhetorically , I ask myself , at what point does a certain behavior have to be exact to the eyelash that it enters in the realm of being neurotic or obcessive /compulsive ? My personal , biased opinion : whatever I do with my dog is Natural to me as well as the dog. Competing … goodness , if I have to make my dog programemed like my computer , for me something is drastically dratically wrong- people are not like that , nor are the dogs … Sometimes , poersonally as an opinion , when I see the new fad using the e collar , and I was trained to use e collar and to teach , using the e collar to do every single Sch exercise applicable , I think to myself : are some of these people out of their minds - Ok I understand competing , but have these people really lost it ? In Germany , I beleive I am correct, if you even use that to teach your dog , or practice with your dog- you are all done competing with that dog. So Apple do not take tnis personally , I am not aiming this post about you but it is relevenant to reinforcement , reinforcement** that many people teach , or fail to teach . Relevent to food use , tug use , etc. BTW ….. the toy , the food , the reinforcement …. is ALWAYS out of sight … or at least it should be. That is another issue.. if it is used as a reinforcement that is . A lure is different.