GSDCA National in Beaumont - Page 5

SORRY PRESTON.

HE IS A REAL GSD..HIS ANCESTORS WE'RE ALL GSD..

THAT MAKES HIM A GERMAN SHERPHERD DOG IN MY BOOK...AND IN EVERY REGISTERING ORGANISATIONS OF THE WORLD.

THERE IS NO SUCH THINGS AS AMERICAN SHEPHERD..IT DOES NOT EXIST..

ARE THE GERMAN TYPES RSD ??(ROACH SHEPHERD DOG). WE COULD CREATE A NEW BREED TOO WITH THOSE CRIPPLED SPECIMEN ..AH AND THERE IS THE SSD (SQUARE SHEPHERD DOG).  MY GOD..SO MANY NEW BREEDS LOL!!

Cause they look all different to me...

Sorry July, obviously you do not know the history of the breed, the history of ASD breeding and how much it was selectively inbred and downbred.  Not all GSDs are roach backs, in fact no more than 50%.  Since there are over 1200 SV GSD clubs in Germany and close surrounding area, you should be able to understand whay these GSD lovers can and have bred dogs that conform to the standard.  Of course the fact that they use SV breed surveys is vitally important, the GSDCA never has and most of the AKC/GSDCA specialty judges are so kennel blind, politically oriented that they do not even know what a good and real GSD is.  Even the WL folks in Europe use and support the SV system and fully acceopt the breed surveys. ASDs have no breed surveys at all and no courage tests.  

American German Shepherds have devolved through highly selective linebreeding (ie bred down) to a distinctively appearing type that is so far from the typical SV types that in comparison they are not recognizeable as SV GSDs to novices who compare them.  They are inferior in every way. If one studies the GSDCA/AKC ASD system honestyly one will quickly see that it is a pyramid of status, a dfood chain climed by old timers who have attained succes over many years in the ASD system, and these folks could never easily just walk away to join the SV system (they would have to start at the bottom with no status and power--therefore it ain't gonna happen very often).   

Those are the facts short stuff.

 You have the right to your opinions Preston..

I for myself will look at comments made by very resectful judge like Mr. Morton Goldfarb who have judge the Canadian National and stated that he was pleased to see so much good exemple of our breed..remakable specimens he said...lots of folks brought german type thinking they had a chance but he chose only American bred..the german type dogs we're lacking gait, angles, croup and more..the only thing they had was good heads and nice colours..

Are you telling me that he does'nt know his standard??

This is the same Dr. Morton Goldfarb who thought VA Dingo vom Haus Gero was a well built dog with a fantastic gait. And he was. I prefer the German dogs myself.

Look, the GSDCA and American breeders have gotten U.S. GSDs quite a ways off track. Radical change is needed but that doesn't happen quickly or overnight. The U.S. GSD showlines are not going to suddenly all be neutered, <sarcasm on> not unless space aliens carry out a massive overnight strike <sarcasm off>.  So the next best thing for those who haven't given up yet is to recognize that change comes slowly. Some of you have given up. Some of you haven't. For those who haven't, voting for judges with Schutzhund experience and for board members with same and lobbying for changes in the breed qualifications seems like the way to go. It's slow. Maybe some of those who have given up have tried this route and failed. That doesn't mean it will never happen.

In order top be a good specimen of a GSD, the dog should look like a GSD, move like a GSD, and act like a GSD and this is all specified in the SV/FCI standard.  ASDs do not look like GSDs or act like them (sometimes they move like them).

Go to any GSDCA show and carefully examine the males.  If you are knowledgeable and honest you will admit that you see mostly long string bean males, with washed out colors, weak backs, pushed forward fronts, shallow posturnum, steep croup, long lower thighs, small bitchy heads, and weak weird temperament.  Then watch them go loose lead (if you get a chance--you will see lots of rumba in the rear, and back whip action, lift and hold in front and long rear sickle hocked stride, with short endurance--certainly not a good working dog in general.  But heck, if someone has spent their whole life climbing the status food chain on the ASD breed, of course they will be unable to be honest about it.  They have become kennel blind and are "true believers",  they have fuly based much of their leisure identity and worth in deceiving themselves about what they own, breed, show and judge.   

July, are you aware that the only dogs that Dr. Goldfarb owns/buys are German. He also attends the Sieger show regularly. I don't think he does this because he thinks the dogs are garbage. When I was an officer of the GSDC of Northern Al. we had him judge a couple of shows for us. He was also in Kentucky at the NASS.

American GSD's are judged on sidegait or handler. There is no other criteria, period. Nothing else matters, not temperment, not hips or elbows, not missing teeth, and certainly not producing or working ability.

ETA: the above is not my opinion, it is my experience.

Best, Rik

Yes, I see all of that at GSDCA and AKC shows. And I've complained to judges about it; some of them have seemed sympathetic and agreed with me. Not all the GSDs look like that but too many do and too many of them win. Yes, many breeders are kennel blind - and proud of it. I wish that were a sarcastic statement but it wasn't.  I know some of these breeders. I wouldn't buy a dog from them though. I also know some breeders who are trying to improve the breed; they know about the hock walkers, bitchy males, weak temperaments, poor joints and ligaments, poor pasterns, over angulation, sickle hocks, lack of endurance (how could they have endurance with all those physical faults?! poor dogs) and the list goes on. Color is a relatively fast fix, but some of the others aren't. 

Those kennel blind breeders are why I say change won't come quickly. But most of them aren't young. They won't be around forever. And the more the general public wants the beautiful, sound, German type dogs, the quicker the change will come.

The last really good, near perfect dog I ever saw in an American AKC/GSDCA showring was Ch. Bar v. Weiherturchen, ROM.  Everything from this dog forward in time in the GSDCA has been downhill and bred down.

 

That dog still has the typical short upper arm and long lower thigh of the American type of GSD. To me, he doesn't look all that different, but then, I never saw him being shown.

If one studies the GSDCA/AKC ASD system honestyly one will quickly see that it is a pyramid of status, a dfood chain climed by old timers who have attained succes over many years in the ASD system, and these folks could never easily just walk away to join the SV system (they would have to start at the bottom with no status and power--therefore it ain't gonna happen very often).   

 

Pres, please explain to me how the SV 'system' is different. Look at the mess of the most recent Sieger show. I still don't know the full story, but my understanding is that a judge was bribed to place certain dogs as high VA's, in return for a percentage of the stud fees.  AS for the dogs, IMO, both German and American line dogs have been too closely inbred. Both sides have a degree of kennel blindness: for instance, you say that German lines have 'no more than 50%' roach backs. To my eye, which is used to looking at both types of dogs, I strongly disagree. German dogs WITHOUT roaches are as rare as hen's teeth. You've seen pictures of my bitch, and said she has a very nice, level topline. Well, if you were to see her move, or even run your hand down her spine, you would realized she DOES have a roach. It's slight compared to some, but still enough to eliminate her from competition in the AKC or CKC show ring.

I'll start taking the German side of this debate seriously when I no longer see dogs that look like this:

Both strains of GSD have their shortcomings. Both need to work on cleaning up their act, and get their heads out of their asses!

untill the akc requires dogs to follow the standard set by the country of origin  for the breed they will always be second class.    just because we dont HAVE to follow the standards set by the SV, the true parent club for GSD's,  doesnt mean we shouldnt at least make the attempt. 

why do you never see any of Max's famous quotes posted on American shephed breeders websites?  "keep my dog a working dog........"   etc.

with all the jobs a GSD can do, i dont think running in a circle and standing in a poor stack position is one deserving of our noble breed.

john

Sunsilver, I saw Bar in person.  He had a noticeably long upper arm and a perfect front opening.  Here is a better photo of him which shows his correct, beautiful structure..  The dog was a complete superstar.  A very solid, stable, friendly dog but tough as nails. Super masculine head, awesome temperament.  Very dry well ligamented working type dog.  I think he had a Sch 3 degree.  Very few have ever had such a proper wither and iron back like him.  He was awesome.  His proportions were perfect.  The photo on this site does not do him justice at all.  I know folks were wild about him and he won almost everything.  I was told by Germans I respected that he was good enough to have been the German Sieger.