GSDCA National in Beaumont - Page 3

Some American breeders are going with West German studs, just to get some muscle and looks back into their dogs. I think we will have to wait until the old American breeders die off or get out of the GSD breeding business. You know who they are. The American GSD isn't a hybrid based on the biological definition of a hybrid, Preston, but they have become a strain of GSD due to too much breeding with only American lines.  The physical, genetic problems are well known - bitchy male heads, overangulation, loose ligamentation, washed out color, HD, etc  and they are not being addressed well or sometimes at all by American breeders.

I didn't go to the GSDCA national specialty show, so I don't know what kind of dogs the judges had presented to them. Some of the judges will undoubtedly pick contrary to standard dogs. I see the results are up on the GSDCA.org website but I haven't looked through them much. The American dogs would improve greatly if the national club would institute a rule saying that all dogs shown over the age of 2 years must be performance titled. And I imagine we'll see this when GSDs grow wings and fly.  Well, I've got better things to do, like go out tracking with my West German showline GSD.  If it snows tonight, I'll track him on snow for the first time tomorrow. Will he smell or will he look? He'd better smell. 

Sam, I agree with you.  The problem is that people go "WHY should we have to do that?!"  I'm titling my dogs the best I can right now.  I wrote earlier that Schutzhund is currently not a viable option for me...and it's not.  I do however work my dogs in obedience, tracking, and agiity.  I tried Rally and found it sooooooooooooooooooooo boring!  Great for puppies that need to get their feet wet in the show scene, but that's it for me.

Two of my own dogs are crosses ;-)  I have one AmBred client dog right now, and I love him, and his temperament is rock solid, he gaits beautifully, he doesn't gait on his hocks, he LIKES to work for me....but I'll be damned if I'll deny that that boy has some rocks rattlin' 'round in that skull!!

Xeph,  Performance doesn't have to be schutzhund, although that's what people think of first. Herding is what GSDs were developed to do, and the "C" course or German HGH is a high performance standard. Tracking is great.  All those things you mention are performance based events.  I too have a cross bred American x German GSD. She looks like her SchH sire, but she has her dam's sweet temperament.  

I know some of the breeders who showed dogs in the GSDCA national. And some of them would say exactly what you stated; they don't give a rat's rear about anything but winning in the showring. Others would say they want a well rounded dog, sound in mind and body and conforming to the standard, and that's what they breed for. The GSDCA is itself split into working dog people and American showline people, with the WDA going the German show route. I hope some day GSDs will all look and act like the standard specifies (the FCI/SV standard) but doubt it will happen within the next 20 years.

VA (select) requirements in Germany:

Certified hips and elbows, working degree and breed survey, sire and dam breed surveyed and working degrees, progeny must pass muster for the highest placings. Continual review and requirements added by the SV to improve breed.

GV and Select requirements GSDCA:

Absolutely none. No requirements for hips, elbows, temperament, or producing ability. 

Also, I don't know who you are, but I do know who Lenny is. I'm willing to bet a pay check that you cannot come close to the # of AKC Champions and Select GSD's that he has owned and bred, both German imports and American bred. There are some people who have earned the right to criticize. If I'm wrong, post your resume and I'll apologize. I was AKC for 20+ years, several Am. &/or Can. champions, futurity class winner, multi BOB winners yada, yada, yada.  90% of them were junk and nothing has changed.  

Best, Rik

Ah yes, but how many of those VA dogs obtained SchH3's when they maybe shouldnt have? We have seen some of their crappy bitework on video, some not even engaging sometimes. How is that adequate temperament? (I am speaking of more USA VA's than German VA's right now).

I'm willing to bet a pay check that you cannot come close to the # of AKC Champions and Select GSD's that he has owned and bred, both German imports and American bred. There are some people who have earned the right to criticize.

Here's the great thing about criticism Rik...nobody has to earn the right to do it.  It's the glory of free speech.  And to ignore someone because they don't have the same credentials as another person is ridiculous.

I'm 23 years old, of course I don't have the same resume.  I haven't been alive long enough xD.  Hell, I'm still learning (as we all should be), but I won't discount what I consider to be a good dog just because of what line he is.

Your opinion that the dogs you had were junk, and you've certainly a right to it.  You'd know your dogs better than anybody else.

And Sam, I agree it is sad the things people will do to win.  I want a dog I can work with in a performance venue, not just same crazy eggbeater that can run in a circle.

I LOVED Schutzhund, but the club I was joining was 3.5 hours one way, training fees were $200 a year, I work two jobs, and go to school.  I can take obedience, rally, tracking, and agility at my local all breed club for $25/year (Agility is $25 a session, but I've not done any in awhile due to school....some trials, but not training).  Oh yeah...the all breed club is 7 minutes from my house xD  And club dues just went down to $20.

And I'm not disagreeing that the lack of requirements for high placements is abysmal...but the majority keeps voting DOWN changes, and until some "German" people either come out of the woodwork and vote FOR requirements, or I drag a crapton of newbies in with me to change it, it isn't going to change.

Heck, they couldn't even agree on the requirement of passing Hip and Elbow screenings for the title of Select....instead they made a whole NEW Desgination....dogs with passing hip and elbow screenings are "Select Excellent".

Arbitrary?  Maybe.  But it's a start, and right now all I can do is what I feel is right with my dogs, which is more than throw them on a 12 foot piece of narrow leather and let 'em fly.

Rik, good post.  Couldn't have been better stated. Too bad much of the the above was spoofed.  I know Lenny too, and he has some great Imports (at least 3) in his kennel that are 100X better than this years GSDCA grand victor.  I'm sure he doesn't compete much in the American showring with them because of the proven lousy AKC/GSDCA  judging. 

Air posted:

"Ah yes, but how many of those VA dogs obtained SchH3's when they maybe shouldnt have? We have seen some of their crappy bitework on video, some not even engaging sometimes. How is that adequate temperament? (I am speaking of more USA VA's than German VA's right now)."

Gee Air, what an orginal and insightful post. Did you come up with that observation on your own. We got to see these dogs in action and make our own evaluations. That is a very good thing to me. In every show or trail that a dog participates we get to make that evaluation again. If someone gets decieved by a dog that is not breed worthy because they did not make their own first hand evaluations, they have no one to blame but themselves. 

Xeph, good luck to you in your quest. When you get the American showlines fixed, I will be the first in line for one. I would make the observation that you will eventually need to put a real dog out there, one with hair on it. All this imaginary breeding and showing you are doing really ain't going to get it done.                                                                                                                     

Until then, I'm going to agree with the O.P. that they (Am. showlines) are pretty much junk.

Best, 

Rik                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

I'm out there showing now ;-)  With funds as they are, breeding isn't optional, so I continue to campaign in conformation, obedience, and agility (getting into a tracking trial 'round here is near impossible right now, and my youngest boy isn't ready yet).

You're welcome to agree with the OP....I disagree *shrugs* Yayy for making one's own choices.

Excuse me for stating the obvious:

Can he clear a 6 foot wall ? is his nerve good? drives? grips? these are the things that are important to the WORKING BREED.

 everythng else is FOO FOO