Drive, drive, drive! - Page 2

Yes, you can absolutely "build" drive or "shape" drive.  You can also extinquish drive or remove drive with poor handling and poor training.  You can even teach a dog to drive:

brynjulf;
You got it!

I was referring to the people that have
puppies/dogs with little to NO drive,
and they spend weeks,months, years trying
to "build" (I guess I should say 'create' drive)
in a dog/puppy that just plain old "don't got it".

Kind of like the dog with chewy bites
(sorry, I can't bring myself to use the word
grip-gag), people will spend what seems like
forever trying to "set" the bite so it is full
and hard, and in reality, you will do this every
training session and will still end up with a
dog that bites like a typewriter!

Another example, the dog that targets the
elbow or the cuff of the sleeve every time,
to the point the "special" sleeve covers come
out, (you know, the plastic covers on them?).
People spend forever trying to fix that kind
of behavior.

Hope that explains better what I was
referring to

I think a skilled handler should be able to take that pup with little or no drive and be able to build it.  I have never had any trouble building drive in dogs.  Now, building a weak dog into a dog that works well in protection that can be hard, especially if you want good grips.  Some dogs with chewy grips are simply genetic, others are made worse by training.  Full, hard, crushing grips are largely genetic.  If the dog doesn't have it, you probably won't get it.  You might get close, but it is not the same.

Slamdunc,
 How long did it take you to teach him to drive?  or did you have to send him to Germany? Is he careful to grip the steering wheel and not leave bite marks? 
Does anyone know if Keith is still alive or has he expired from some infection?  Random I know , couldnt be helped....

Slam I'm only impressed by the dog that drives IF he is also handling a K9 ;)

Like any newcomer to sport, I was confused by the phrase , but I thought you sport people understood "building drive" has nothing to do with creating anything.

And how did you go from drive to grips; the manner of grip and how it's targeted?  You don't need a high level of drive at all to get full and hard bites, and targeting for the most part is a training concern.  Now you need focus, build your drive and gather your focus.

There's more to drive than bitework, it's the powering force behind all of a dog's motivations.  It would seem more prudent to clarify in this thread that; a restless dog is not a dog 'in drive.'  That's a dog with nuthin behind the wheel.

Some of the greatest trainers even avoid use of the word 'drive' at all.

IMO they are born with it or not.  But the owner can either promote it and bring it out, or hinder it and kill it.  Depending on what they do with the puppy.  As Bryn said sometimes people will say their dog has monster drive but then the pup shows nothing when tested.  I think that some dogs with lower drive may show very well in their home environment where they are comfy, then not show as well in a new situation.  Obviously if the drive is high enough and the nerves are ok, they will show that drive anywhere :)  I also think that "monster drive" means something very different to a pet person than it does to people who are more involved in SchH and other working dog sports.  

I also think that while they are either born with it or not, some dogs/lines do "turn on" later.  My dogs all have decent drive as a young puppy, but not "over the top".  But right around 8-10 months it does go "over the top" and they really light up.  It is kind of neat to watch them "turn on"... late bloomers I suppose.  But they are not "lacking" at a younger age, just not the "wild take your hand off for the ball" that some pups will show at a young age.  But once they turn on and grow up, you couldnt ask for more drive.  

JMO of course,
Valerie

OK I dont know who was Boomer's driving teacher but if you dont have him put his front paws on the wheel I will call a cop!

Fozzie My english is not that good could you explain to what you mean that Bart Bellon Does to get the drive youre writing about and how its done ????? I like Bart alot

daryl .. you are correct... the problem that i have been battling  for over 20 years is that people get into dog training .. they hear terms and phrases . Most people  not all ,for that matter ,understand and comprehend true meanings irregardless of any english word attributed.- new comers do not get the full comprehension because the word/phraseology is inadequate to describe what exactly is meant !! 
           e.g " Drives" . There are no drives .... animals have innate , genetic predisposed behaviors [ most are related to SURVIVAL]  . OR they have motivations , some directly related to the genetric basis of behavior. other motivations  are not . e.g - one can motivate a dog to heel . to the dog that is not natural walking.  but the dog learns to do it.  'Drive' does not tell you what the motivation[s] of an animal is ,  where the motivation originates nor what specific qualitative and  quantative aspects are aasinged  to the exact/specific motivation /emotion / thought or feeling of the dog .
             e.g you throw a ball - the dog chases it , then >>> - so what is the motivation of the dog ? how and what kis the dog feeling as it chases. what is the mental and emotinal state ?  was the chase for the love of the chase , the love to possess , the love to bite an object ? will it go through a open wiondow to get that ball?All these affect and effect what you wannt the dog to do and what it truelly wants to do .
      so we talk about the dog ? building drive ... and tyhnat is discusses alone and apart of the dog - it's temerament , it's past experiences , >... foolishness .  drive promotion .. isn't that so mfoolish to think you can promote a behavior the dolg has no geneitc base for , ? stress level for or low motivation for ?? . the key is to understand the dog and know how to interact with it, .. THAT is what is important ... IMO - if the3 dog , so call has it ... no nreed to promote it !!  e.g my 11 months GSdf .. she can't wait to bite a toy .. runs and tries to find one herself .. i had to do the opposite , - hide her toys in ordeer that she plays when i deem so !! drive manipulation .. i just look at the dog , know the temperasmnet and :>LISTEN to what she is saying to me ... such a foolish concept .. 'drive promotion ' ,.. when on earth are you professionals ever going to learn ???
       To illustrate: daryl -you are correct .. if the dog has the genetic make up to do bite work .. it may combine learning to it's intstincts and one can develop a full  bite /hard grip - .. maybe not all the time because of the overall other genetic components within the dog and other factors that come into play.. e.g stress level , which is genetic. soret to speak , for some dogs - if you don't use it you loose it / learned beahviors .  that is to say they can learn that theier instincts have become to no avail ... the far end of this spectrum - 'learned helpelessness ', an example where the insticts are of no avail .There are a,mny factors that affect the behavior of a dog : temperament/ what is learned , environment, the capablitity of the owner  & trainers.  
      same notion with " capping drive" - another misused notion ..abother vague cliche antiquated english expression .  'capping drive' : is that YOU controlling the dog OR  is the control , "self control " eminating from  within the dog ?. that is to say , the dog itself learns to channel it's own innate instincts. there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the two.. so again .. someone talks about 'capping drive ' but what in the world is that person EXACTLY talking about ?? you don't know in regards to a specific dog/handler because it is to vague of a phrase. it simply implies control . IMO , as i wrote before you can get anyone[dog] to do or not do anything by , in a manner of speaking, putting a gun to it's head. IMOP that avenue of training is poor. now one can get a golden retiever to bite full and as a matter of fact , just the opposite .. ass a bird dog one culitvates the dog to bike soft  to not damage the bird !!
       IMO when topics come up that are discussed in generalities and with 'buzz ' words this is very very bad for those trying to learn . not for those who 'know' / 'fully  do comprehend' what they are talking about. this is very very very bad for those trying to better themselves and gain correct , full comprhension of the canine mind and behavior.  
       i personally scold those professionals who continue this outdated , inadequate terminology , giving seminars and taking people's money .. you should be paying them to listen to your nonsense ! IMO when you do that : it  is intellecutally keeping them oppressed.