Oshawa, Ontario, Canada GORGEOUS Male 2 Yrs Old Needs EXPERIENCED Owner! Knows Commands - Page 3

Not buying it, Hexe. If the dog is so normal why don't you take her? Yeah you're busy but then we all are. You don't need a kennel just a crate. Don't expect me to take you seriously until you get serious and take the dog.

No sane herding dog latches on like that and refuses to let go no matter what the owner does. A lot of stockmen would immediately shoot a dog in the head if he did that to his sheep or cattle. They can't afford to have their livestock badly injured or killed. If you were familiar with herding, you would know that is not what is meant by gripping. Not to mention the fact that herding dogs that attack other dogs on the farm for no good reason are not tolerated. Stockmen have no time or patience for that kind of sh*t and they don't sit around at the keyboard inventing excuses for it.

I would not have that dog anywhere on my property after a nightmare like that. Management will fail sooner or later, and someone else will get hurt. But the problem Sunsilver has is that she hears lots of folks prattling on and on about how normal and wonderful the dog is but of course no one will take the dog off Sunsilver's hands.

Good luck Sunsilver. I'm done with this. I sure hope someone puts his money where his mouth is and finds the dog a home without other dogs.

<yawn>  Good idea, JonRob. Go train some more 'normal' dogs--those are the ones whose owners need your help the most, right? 

Given that I live alone, I'm not stupid enough to think I could take on a third dog without having kenneling available--crating isn't sufficient for this, and you know that if you know what you're talking about.  I'm sooo clueless, by your estimation, yet I was able to break up the incident with my rescued dog and the visiting dog, AND keep the two other dogs [my bitch and my friend's Jack Russell, who was also staying at the time] from joining the fray, AND avoid being bitten myself, without any help save for the elk antler chew that fortunately was within reach. I know my limitations, and am not going to put either of my present dogs, or any other dog, at risk just because some screen-name on a web forum issues an empty challenge.  Right now, all I can offer Sunsilver is moral support and try to help her connect with a trainer who is experienced in rehabbing dogs with intraspecies aggression.
 

marjorie, good luck with the surgery. have a friend who recently had this done and it's amazing to me that he's 75 years old and reads a newspaper with no glasses. It went very well for him.

sunny, I know what high hopes you had for Gracie, I'm just not sure how one ever trusts a dog again that causes this much damage. I guess the only bright spot is that she didn't get on a client's dog.

how does a thread about rescues turn into finger pointing and challenges?

Rik what was it you said in my thread about GSD Inherited Ventricular Arrhythmia? 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=709635-gsdiva--worth-knowing-about#710108

Well, FWIW, Sunny, I when I bred Malamutes, a breed that  was infamous for being incurable fighters, I managed to only have one serious fight in 25 years. That happened when I stupidly put a male and female together for breeding - he thought she was ready, she disagreed and tore into him. I was home alone, got a very nasty bite myself and was lucky enough to be able to throw one out of the kennel and lock the gate behind him. I never tried that again on my own. I didn't consider either of these dog "insane" or out of control. Dogs are dogs, some love to fight, end of story. Neither of those dogs would have ever put their mouths on a human deliberately.

It certainly is possible to prevent fights by keeping the trouble makers separated from the rest of the pack if that's what you choose to do. You probably have the ideal situation to do that. Do what's right for you. Gracie will probably never be a dog that will get along with other dogs. At least that was my experience with my fighters. And the females are always the worst, they will fight to the death while most males will fight to the point of submission.

Of course it's not "normal" behavior for a herding breed, but we are talking about a rescue, a dog with an unknown history. Sunny will never  know what sort of life this dog had before she got her.I'm sure she has had enough experience  with dogs to have known that taking a rescue is always a risk.

Gracie is my fourth GSD rescue. I've been lucky so far. She's the only one that's had such serious issues, though the gal in my sig wasn't safe with kids or strangers, and turned the house upside down when she first came to live with me. (She was a BIG 9 month old puppy with no training.)

 Blitzen, I think I can hazard a pretty good guess as to why she wound up like this.

When her owner retrieved her from the pound after she was seized for the first time, THREE WHOLE DAYS went by, and he did not come to give her food or water. This meant she must have gone 3 or 4 days or more without being given any attention. Maybe he would leave a big pile of food for her, and a large pail of water. She would then have to DEFEND HER FOOD from other animals.

That could turn a dog with a naturally high prey drive into one that can't stand the sight of another dog. (And she does have very strong ball drive, which often goes hand in hand with prey drive.)

Fortunately, she does not show any food aggression towards people, but she did go off on the dog that was caged opposite her the other day. She had finished her food and he was still eating, and she started to snarl and growl at him aggressively. That tipped me off as to why she might be the way she is.

She's an absolute love bug with people, or she'd be bound for a one way trip to the vet as soon as the 10 day quarantine was up!

Sure and that's only a snapshot of what her life has been before you got her. Taking in an adult usually has it challenges; many times owners are trying to place them due to some sort of behavioral issue that they can't or don't want to handle. I never had a lot  of luck rehabbing dog aggressive dogs, I just learned to live with it, but I know others who have done it successfully.

I've been following this post and in regards to the dog "Gracie" (f.k.a 'Aah') that Sunsilver adopted from  Buchannon WV . . . I"M the person who did the initial assessment on her... I'm ever so sorry for the events that took place and the injuries to her friend and herself as a result of her attempts to introduce her male Ranger to her. BUT.... I do want to say that I feel I in no way mislead Sunsilver or anyone interested in Gracie (fka 'Aah" ) on the extent of her intense prey drive or dog aggressive behavior  in general. I DID feel that she 'may' be a bit easier to handled if she had the opportunity to  burn off some of excess energy and tension....a high drive dog being confined in a 4x4 kennel for over a week isn't an ideal situation as some of you may know.... She WAS confined with a large young adult intact male GSD (probably a year -year and half in age) in the small run when I arrived that morning. They had just put the two of them in together .... Gracie was absolutely fine with this dog and she showed NO dominant behavior nor aggression towards him even in the excitement of both of them trying to get out of the gate when I went to retrieve Gracie as the first dog to evaluate. The other Aussie male she was in a run with was info from the shelter director. I accurately described and/or videoed the meeting of Gracie with the Irish Setter as well as a small beagle...not trying to hide that neither meetings were good.!! The somewhat confusing aspect of her dog socializiation skills to me is that she isn't attempting to fight with any of the dogs in the runs that she is brought by on lead. There is a video on her post showing this.  I've evaluated well over 100 GSDs for rescues over the past 7-8 years .... the majority of dog aggressive dogs I've evaluated have shown initial aggression to the other dogs in the runs if they are brought to the wire to meet them. Especially when the dog in the run is showing aggression ... Gracie isn't the least bit concerned about any of the dogs in the runs and is displaying no aggressive body language. 

I'm a lifetime owner of GSDs and have spent the past 10 years obedience training and competing with my own. I also have a good bit of knowledge into schutzhund and herding ... unfortunatley  WV has little to offer in either of these disciplines to devote more time to them... just offering a little info on my background... I'm not just a rescue person who thinks all dogs are just wonderful and need homes no matter at who's expense... I wouldn't blame Sunsilver in the least if she decided to have Gracie euthanized since she presents a danger to other dogs and indirectly people. I'd hoped when she indicted she wanted to adopt Gracie that she understood she was getting a major project as I had given as much accurate information on her as possible from the hour or two I'd spent with Gracie in the shelter. .... I believe Sunsilver also indicated if dog socializing efforts failed she had the space and kennels to keep her separated if that was the outcome. Again, I'm not in the least saying she'd be wrong to euthanize the dog IF that is her choice. .I'm not in her shoes.  

As far as the reasons this dog ended up in the shelter... well, like SO many others I've seen and evaluated it's most likely a case of a person getting a dog with  NO KNOWLEDGE at all on owning a GSD and no desire to learn. Was it not said the man didn't even speak English?? The dog was obtained  by him for a reason... to 'protect' his property..Happens all the time... german shepherds are bought for 'watchdogs' by many many people who are totally ignorant of their REAL worth. I imagine the former owner had no idea of her intense prey drive and dog aggression.. to him that was most likely his impression of what GSDs are all supposed to be like. .  She was just a piece of disposible property to him....I'm also really surprised that JonRob has no idea that when dogs fight, EVEN GSDs, they DO latch on and wont' let go..also, arent' we breeding working line dogs with pronounced bites in them ? Even my low drive, low energy ASL dog 'latches on like a Pitbull' and won't let go!!! She has bitch on bitch aggression and breaking up fights between my two bitches isn't easy... picking one up totally off of the ground while she still has the other dog still in her mouth  is pretty typical of them. Fortunatley I've not gotten bitten... and they are now permanently separated until other measures can be taken to provide them with separate yard space. Anyways, I wish the best to Sunsilver and Gracie. . . 
 

Because of Gracie's video, and her reaction to my female GSD, I WAS prepared for the meeting to not go well. I thought I had taken adequate precautions. Due to her history with the male GSD at the shelter, though, I WAS hoping for a more positive outcome than what I got.

I don't feel the shelter mislead me in any way re. her issues, but due to her being okay with the young male, I maybe got my hopes up too high, and thought once she was away from the stressful conditions of the shelter, she would be more mellow. I gave her plenty of time to get used to being in the kennel and around other dogs before I attempted any introductions.

However, I found out she WOULD fence-fight with some dogs, so I always made sure a dog wasn't in the run directly next to her when I turned her out. Bites CAN happen through a fence!

[quote]picking one bitch totally up off the ground while she still has the other in her mouth...[/quote]

Yep, that's pretty much the way things went down once she latched on to Ranger's leg, except the pain caused by this pushed him into the red zone.

Shit happens - adult dogs are living animals with their own history, you are no clairvoyant.
You tried your best - you failed - you won´t fail once more with this dog.
A strange adult German Shepherd always can be a battle - don´t give up.
All the best to you and your friend.