I think treat training is cruel. - Page 6

Markers were used during Kohler days too. Not to the extent, but were used. Release commands too.

Right Vito.
I said in last post: „This is nothing new and has been used by dog trainers, more or less for a hundred years...only perhaps with different verbiage. What is different now is less use of negative reinforcers and punishment for issues, like in Koehlers time in mid last century...“

Rik, your 70s experience mirrors mine. Have been fortunate enough to stay in touch with developments through a variety of such Clubs (as well as having an 'in' to a couple of GSD specialist clubs where SchH featured) over much of the intervening decades since, and have watched as methods, terminology and thinking have changed. Agreeing with you and many others here that there is actually "nothing new under the sun"; it is just that at different times, certain ways of doing things have taken prominence. 'Fads', if you like. Some of which can be learned from, or we are reminded of, to give quicker & better results;  and some of which do not in fact add very much to the 'tool box' if you look into them more deeply. Badly applied, these can actually damage, either the individual dog, or human/dog relations - so as I said earlier, Prager has a point in his OP (as long as he isn't chucking the baby out with the bathwater). And some of which modernisations are about expectations in the sports / activities changing, too. Focussed heeling; having the dog 'leaning on' your leg, as well as staring into your eyes, whereas we used to be penalised for allowing that to happen; etc. Personally I still prefer a dog to be looking where he or she is going, also not impeding the forward movement of my leg as I walk. But maybe that's just me. Who gives a f**k if it looks less flashy ?

I still think we would not have got so much emphasis on using food reward etc methods so much if the whole essence of dog-owning had not skewed towards far too many people getting dogs that in an earlier time would have thought twice about whether they really had time and patience for it. For which (all sorts of) breeders must be partly responsible; perhaps they should have spent more time asking themselves if they were selling to the best of buyers ? (yeah, and I know the puppy farmers/millers never would have done - but the numbers of THOSE have grown over the past 40 years or so, too, yes folks ?).

[Gustav: TY.  No, I didn't think that, ,  at all !!! ]

Just for the record, I am in the school of using food and toys to teach a pup or young dogs different behaviors. It takes many repetitions for a dog to display a behavior or set of behaviors with precision. After the dog has learned, compulsion is necessary and sometimes compulsion is necessary early on such in protection obedience. Same can be said of negative reinforcement in terms of regular obedience. If you are doing any type of competition obedience, you need as many repetitions as possible and food allows for continuous reinforcement which contributes to learning a behavior the fastest. I don't think hunger pangs has any relevance. It is one thing to limit a dog's food to build his food drive, but you are not starving the dog. People tend to anthropomorphize. There is an epidemic of people being overweight and obese in the U.S. Part of the reason is that people can't distinguish true hunger any more because they have so much access to food. I would also argue that using food requires more thinking and is more time consuming. You have to sometimes cook the food (I don't like to use hot dogs because they are garbage food), you have to cut the food up in the correct sizes so the dog doesn't become satiated too quickly, you need to pack the food up to take to training, have an apron or pouch and fill it with food, and how and where you present the food is a learned skill. Presenting the food just slightly incorrectly can work against your training goals while proper presentation can accelerate them. It is much simpler (or possibly lazier) to give a correction and pet and praise your dog.

Hund, two posts in a row we’re on same page ....keep it coming....lol

Good post apple. food or toy is a great way to prevent conflict between dog and handler .it also a great way to keep drive when a dog gets a correction. I don't believe any good handler or trainer us not using the tools that is why they have drives .my older male is low is food drive was not really in to toys until he got older .so most of his training was done under pressure works for some dogs but Will fold alot. I've dog with nice prey and food drive now and they are alot easier to train . It is also very rare to see handler aggression because the is more Ballance in the training imo . pressure training has to come out somewhere 😊

A problem often associated with compulsion is that the dog has not even learned a specific behavior because he wasn't allowed to figure out the behavior via food. Also, this resulting conflict actually does more harm than good for the relationship between the dog and handler. After a dog has sufficiently learned a behavior and disobeys, compulsion is required because the dog has to respect you or see you as the leader.

Apple Very similar to nepopo way of thinking which I find a super system for obidence .

Hans

Do they give the dolphins fish at SeaWorld in the Old Country?

I believe Bellon uses a place box which is great for indirect learning in pups. The pup goes toward the box, mark and reward with food. Next time wait until he gets a little closer, make and reward with food. Then the pup touches the box. Next he might put a paw in. This is teaching a dog how to learn and food is perfect because you can offer continuous reinforcement without breaking/stopping the behavior as you would with a toy. The title of this discussion topic is absurd.