Your "succesful" method of teaching the RECALL - Page 4

I disagree 100%. I'm not sure why you always assume that anyone who disagrees with your methods is less experienced than you. I've been at it a long time too, maybe even longer than you.

It's Nan's dog, she asked for opinions; you gave yours I gave mine. She can decide how to procede.

Blitzen, at the end of the day, someone can be a pet owner for 75 years and never done anything other then feed dogs and someone else has been training dogs for 20 years, but, in that period of time, they trained several hundred of them...who do you think has more experience?

Nan's dog has a problem listening and I am willing to bet that it does because it does not take them seriously enough because it has not be corrected hard enough to understand consequences. This is NOT a reward problem, this is a correction one.  

I don't assume because you disagree with me. 

I know because of statements like, "never" regarding the ecollar for obedience.

It's a tool. You use a tool when its needed.  You've never needed the ecollar because you haven't come across the dog who needed it.  Hence you haven't trained enough dogs yet.

I didn't say experienced, you did.

I just saw an addition to your post about wanting the dog to work for you because of a relationship and not because it fears a correction. Blitzen, in Nature, there are no corrections and rewards, just concequenses, both good for doing and bad for not doing. I also like a good relationship with my dog, but, that relationship is build on the ONLY thing it can when it comes to animals, concequenses and consistency. I have zero problem correcting as hard as I need to when the dog willfully disregards a command, anytime, anywhere and because I dont train for sport or points and I demand my dog responds instantly to a single command, I dont really care why it listens, as long as it does when I say "stay" while it happens to be looking at kittens on parade on the other side of a 6 lane highway because I know that the alternative will be a dog that resembles a speed bump...not good!

Not being able to train a dog to come or stay without using electronics doesn't exactly say - I am a great dog trainer, HD. Why do you guys always assume you know it all, that your way is the only way, and that it applies to every dog and every situtation.  

That is a great question Blitzen and I can only answer for myself, so, I will tell you my point. Sure, you can train a dog without an E collar, however, the timing will not be there as perfect as it will be with an E collar. Long lines get messy, diving for one when you need it is not fun, I have no interest in having a 200 foot long one on any dog I will ever own or train, I want to be able to reach my dog instantly, I do not want the distance between me and my dog to be a factor, I can raise or lower the level of correction with a flick of my thumb and the best part, the dog does not get to see anything negative coming from me or it does not get cued when it sees me dive or reach for the line while it was ignoring me when I did not have it...is that enough, I can keep going...

As far as my way, I will tell you something "shocking" Blitzen...at a basic, fundamental level, ALL dogs can be indeed trained with the same method, rewards and corrections, end of. The only difference is the intensity of those two things and they are dictated by the dog's temperament, easy, yes? You know what the REAL problem here is Blitzen...its the inability or the unwillingness of pet owners to use tools or to correct a dog hard enough to make a lasting impression, thats why you hear all the excuses you do about a dog's behavior.

 I have had several dogs that have gone into a phase of not coming when called. Some after a harsh verbal correction and some just stubborn, for a piss off. The perp walk has been the fastest correction for that  for me. I will walk over calmly grab both front legs and make them walk on the back two till I get to where I called them. The entire time praising them without using the come command and no hostile energy. Some have screamed bloody murder and fight like hell some just tolerated it because of the praise. But all where embarresed, I have never reached 5 perp walks, they hate it. Although they dont correlate the going back to the spot they do correlate the embarresment of being walked on the back legs, with not coming when called, rather pronto. Im sure this is a terrible idea for the feel goodies, but corrections have come in hours or a day or two. 

BLitzen,

you stated, "Why do you guys always assume you know it all, that your way is the only way, and that it applies to every dog and every situtation.  "

Why don't you ask yourself that question.  You stated you never train ob with an ecollar.  So answer your question for me.  Why is it for every dog, no matter what or where, you don't need an e-collar in ob?

Me?  I'm a chameleon,  I change my training to fit the dog.  My daughter's dog uses an e collar.  My dog does not.  My last dog didn't, the one before that used it in every phase. I do what the dog tells me is necessary.  I don't have a "system" that works every time.

Nans dog needs an ecollar to train him out of his already ingrained bad habits.

Obedience is Obedience...You train it all the same...Whether you train using Motivation or Compulsion all depends on the Dog and the Trainer/Handler...

I read all the posts on here and what I hear is that no one really talks about the differences between what to do at different ages...What and how you train when your puppy is a puppy and/or what and how you train when they're a young adult or an adult...It's all different...

Now when your puppy is a puppy (like under 4 to 5 months of age)...I only use motivational techniques...Food...Toy...etc...To me Compulsion is only for older dogs...once they understand what it is that you're asking of them...

Also...to me...ALL Obedience is based on your Bond with your puppy/dog...Depending on whether you're still Bonding (creating a Bond) or are working with what you've already developed...

When working with a puppy the way I begin working on the bonding and on things that will help in doing Obdeience later on...Is very important...I actually like working with an entire litter...I'll take them outside...then go off and actually try to hide on them...I will be someplace where I can see them...They will begin trying to figure out where you are and how to find you...To me it's a good way to get your puppy to learn to stay with you...I don't really use a reward (such a food or a toy at this time)...Puppies naturally want to stay with you or they're mama...

That is the beginning...As time goes on I will use a reward (food or a toy) to motivate them to be and stay closer to you...Then I will begin using food to getting the puppy to do the things I want...Such as being closer to me and coming to me when called and to be or get into a particular position...Then as I begin more intricate ob...I will begin to intoduce lite compulsion...A little tug or pop here or there...They begin to understand what it is that I want...

With an older dog you just go faster thru the basic same steps...Remember:When an exercise includes too many parts...break it down into smaller parts...train...then put them back together...

~Bob~

Look, Nan asked for suggestions, I gave her mine, they are every bit as valid as yours and a lot less traumatic for the dog. This is a GSL dog, not a Czech workingline. Maybe he's not genetically programmed to take unnescessary corrections from an ecollar for a behavior that could be taught without his taking a shock. He seem to be a highly reactive dog.

Now it's up to her to decide how to best proceed with her dog. I said I never used an ecollar to OB train a dog and I never have. So what? I didn't say you should never use an ecollar for OB training, did I? I said I have one, just don't use it for OB training. I said I never found it necessary period.

I don't think her dog is that far gone that she needs electronics. That's what I think based on my own experience and I have not been just a pet owner for 44  years.  She's not that experienced with an ecollar; has admitted she's only used it for unwanted behavior, not for training. IMO using an ecollar the wrong way is going to cause this dog a lot more harm than trying to retrain it.