Defense - Page 15

Duke said: "I know it is different to make dog switch between equipment and civil, but there is a plus and a minus to everything

by using equipment first and switch, the dog is put in higher gear before engaging or trying to engage on civil, so a bunch of dogs will look better when pumped on equipment first

I must say yor dog in video showed desired behaviour on civil, only thing I would have worked the dog a little shorter sessions as he looked a little empty on the end and less focussed, but definately a nice dog

when looking for switch in prey/civil I like a dog to work like this"

 

I understand what you are saying. I will not dispute the validity of the statement that the dog will look better when worked first on equipment on which, I think, we could have long discussion with no agreeable conclusion in the end. I'll just say that is a matter of opinion.  But I will say that to me personally  the most important thing in PP/ LE dog is that he is unquestionably civil ( no hang ups on equipment targeting.) 

To my mind comes video of a homeless  man who got shot in Albuquerque by my conviction because the  dog was equipment oriented. There the K9 was send on a man and failed to decisively engage   while not biting effectively or at all which was hard to determine  on the video. After 1/2 hearted or no bite the dog picked up  something on the ground I think it was a backpack and commenced to play with it shaking it.  The officers perceived threat because now the homeless produced knife(s) and was shot dead. We can have hours of discussions on the topic whether  if the dog would bitten that the homeless man would live. That is not important to my point . My point is that the dog was not civil and failed  to perform and I am completely convinced that it was due to training of  their LE K9 from  equipment to man and by poor rewarding system.  Anybody interested can google "James Boyd homeless man shot in Albuquerque" and view the video. 

 There are innumerable other examples like this.  They are caused by the fact that sport dogs are retrained to man dogs or by the were fact that  such dogs are trained from green dog to pp/le K9  with from  equipment to man  that is how it is these days  done,.... and for reasons above I totally disagree. 

 Prager Hans 

vk4gsd:"A dog can still be in prey drive in the absence of equipment. I don't understand why you guys insist that no equipment = civil unless the dog actually bites. a decoy's moves can be prey moves without equipment on. Literally thousands of pet dogs around the world charge down mail delivery guys at the door/fence each day. A dog can be in full prey drive with no equipment. Dogs can bite civil in prey drive, that's how they evolved to survive. Defence drive does not always mean a dog will bite civil, it just means the dog is concerned for it's own safety. Equipment does not mean a dog will not bite civil. + a million other possibilities. There is only one way to know if a dog will engage without equipment."

 

 I  totally agree. Civil means that the dog will  target  man and not equipment. That can be in prey or defense. 

@VK4 - You raise a couple of interesting points, so let me try and explain what is NOTcivil aggression, and what is.

To get a reading re any dog's civil ability / potential, you need to ditch as much equipment as you can. Simply because sleeves and suits are triggers - visual and scent.

To understand how big a trigger a sleeve or a suit is for the dog,
put either on and watch your own dog spark up.

He will want to play, he wants to bite the equipment - doesn't matter who is in it.

The fact he is stimulated in this way - confirms this trigger. (that behavior is the OPPOSITE of civil aggression)

Now, put a muzzle on your own dog, ensure you are not wearing a suit or sleeve, stand back and observe him , I guarantee you that he won't be interested in USING you as a tug toy lol.

That's because the muzzle is not triggering in your dog the stimulation that the suit or sleeve does, there assosciation is giant toy - lets play tug.

If you don't believe me, keep the muzzle on him, and put on a sleeve or suit jacket, he will do one of two things:

1, He will try and claw of the muzzle to play tug.

2, He will butt the sleeve with the muzzle in an attempt to play tug lol.

Eithier way those behaviours are the OPPOSITE from civil aggression.

We know this because your dog has zero intentions of hurting you, yet he is keen to bite the equipment you are wearing, once again this is the OPPOSITE of civil aggression. 

From a civil training / proofing perspective - the muzzle is an excellent barometer of civil ability. Also remember, when a dog is muzzled and still engages with intent, you are witnesing  an animal who is so confident, they believe they can beat the bad guy even without using there teeth.

IMO this is an even better insight into the pysche of the dog, than even a bite on flesh would give you..

The other thing I would say re getting a true civil reading of any dog,  is the behavior of the decoy .

The more OTT he is behaving re screaming / zig zaging quickly etc, the less accurate / true the civil reading will be. 

Not because the dog will bite in a particular drive, but because such over the top behaviour from the decoy is yet another potential unatural trigger. So the less stimulation you give the dog, the truer the reading will be on the civil scale  - hope that makes sense.

Regards
Gee

Yogidog:"A dog is not working civil if the is a sleeve or bite suit any where around the dog . He is still working for the sleeve all these top civil dogs seem to need to b pumped by the sight of a sleeve . "  This is an interesting point which I would like to address. I agree with the point that made ny yogidog and IMO it is true that when the dog sees any equipment or is in area where he normally trains that such dog is  generating in his mind associations  which gets him fired up. I call such associations - undesirable associations. There are infinity of possibilities of  such. ( There are also desirable and supportive associations) . Now back to the training videos of my dogs. First of all the dog(s) on my videos are not performing demonstration or test which demand that such equipment is not around.  They are in training to not to pay attention to an equipment and target the man instead. Actually the way I train civil dogs is that to them equipment is just an obstacle in their way to a man. The fully trained dog when offered let say sleeve or suit bite will let go   the sleeve by first opportunity and reengage the body of the man. That is nicely obvious in the time when the decoy is slipping the sleeve where such  dog actually lets go of the sleeve ( or suit )  before the sleeve is completely off and re-engages the man. But the training of a dog to avoid equipment as seen on my videos,  can be only done with equipment laying around.

Or

You may be talking about channeling of prey on sleeve to man trying to steal it after the man slips the sleeve off and dog drops it. In that case the dog is guarding the sleeve ( or any other equipment ) and targets the man. That is standard of retraining sport dogs from equipment to man.  I totally agree with you that in that case it is all about sleeve. However when the dog is attacking the man over top of the equipment - equipment easily reachable by the dog - that tells me that what I am trying to do is correct and the dog is ignoring the equipment and instead  the dog is targetting  the man even though equipment is around. That ( videos)  is  only one of the early stages of such training. Eventually the true civil dog has to attack the man - stranger in unfamiliar place no equipment present, while such man is passive, standing,squatting,  sitting or prone on the ground dressed or naked. Such dog needs to be able to bite any part of the body.

Prager Hans

@Hans.
Yep I remember that case, and would concur with you.
Regards
Gee

Pager I agree with you in the early stage about the equipment .slipping the sleeve . guarding the sleeve and the eventual coming over the sleeve towards the man. But what u can't demostrate a civil dog with equipment in the area . But I agree a young dog needs equipment around to build him up I myself use a similar technique

joanro; always love your pic's; great looking bitch and she works to boot. nice nice girl... dang.  Nan

Thanks, nans. :-) 

If you are training for real protection as opposed to strictly sport you have to systematically train in a civil manner. Most people do the opposite if they are sport minded trainers.

I agree with Gee, to separate the boys from the men, put your dog a muzzle on and let someone in Tshirt and shorts attack you
not talking about training as seen in belgium ring where some dogs are buildup, bumping a biting pillow but cold test without previous training

I provide many dogs to police and SWAT that only want these type of dogs

https://youtu.be/6qBv-lVEZVw