Would you breed a blue mal? - Page 14

@hundmutter
"Yeah but ... I think what we have been hedging around here is WHETHER being Blue is a 'significant fault' - and if so, why ? I don't even know yet"

Me neither? Ha ha. Well, I do know. Blue IS a significant fault according to the NA and Belgian standards. So, there's no reason to breed one and perpetuate such a fault. If there's a blue dog out there so otherwise insanely outstanding that it MUST be bred then OK. But, I doubt that one exists.

Was just discussing this the other day; GSD breeder keeping a dog with a visible genetic defect (like, a big one) in its breeding program. To me there is no reason to do this. No dog is that good. And this particular dog has no training, no titles, no nothing to justify keeping such a defect in the line. IMO of course.

GK1
what are the sufficient physical attributes in your view a protection dog should have

dog's size which cannot be easily lifted and smashed, jam-locked and limited in movement during fight.
let's imagine you're to face dog's attack and have no way to avoid it.
what size of that dog would you prefer it to be - 50lbs mali or 180lbs caucasian shepherd?

speaking about dog size... poor lady definitely overestimated own capacities to handle that dog :)

Valk, how about start being practical? How do you fit a 180 pound dog in the back seat of a car? How do you lift that dog into an attic space? Can that dog last on a 2 hour track or area search? What about working in an urban environment with walls and fences that need to be climbed/jumped?

Sure, it would be great to pull out something like "King Kong" out of your car and have the fight be over before it starts, but, again, fantasy land thinking....these dogs need to function in the real world under real circumstances.
Now, if you need a guard dog to guard a missile silo or a wall, sure, get a 180 pound dog behind that fence and pray that the person who jumps it is not in great shape and outruns that dog, but, in the actual, every day world, a 70 pound Malinois will make you look stupid by its speed, tenacity and agility.

Again, for the record, we are speaking of a dog that rides in the back of a car in the USA or Canada or a European country TODAY. Enjoy your Tuesday.

Well yeah ValK, it's 'significant' in a Breed Standard predicated on the fact that there has been varietal inter breeding (eg Mali to Teurv, Teurv to Groenendahl, etc), when the Standards are saying the varieties are all identified by the length, type and colour of their coats (and little else, frankly).

While I would not actively encourage the breeding on of a blue 'Mal', I doubt it would do much actual harm in a dedicated Working program, where the dogs are already really Mixes anyway.

But is it also a 'significant' factor in the GSD ? For instance, while discouraged, it isn't actually listed as a 'Fault' in the UK Standard; and while the American one calls it a 'serious fault', it does not actually DQ it, although it isn't Shown in practice. Since blue GSDs keep coming up in comparison here, and many have pointed out that no good dog which can work is a 'bad' colour ? And there is so little evidence for it having any deleterious effect on the health of the dog ? (Except of course where it has been over-produced by the greedy !)  I mean, personally I have never promoted Blues (or Livers), I'm not over fond of the dilute colours - but the question has to be asked, doesn't it ?

 

HiredDog - could always drive around in a Hummer ?

Rik: I wasn't talking about Busecker Schloss, but much more recent German imports.

A dog like the 95 pound Mal X is difficult to control more because of his drive and aggression than his weight. The breed also far exceeds the GSD in agility and I wouldn't be surprised if the dog in the video could climb a 10' palisade/wall, whereas a GSD that size most likely never will. So such a dog will need less help getting into attics, over fences, etc.
Jillmissal,
My point was if the hypothetical dog was of such quality it surpassed GSDs within the standard, should it be disqualified from breeding? In other words, the dog is so good, no other dogs within the standard are on par with it. IMO, the paradigm for breeding GSDs has to change in terms of producing working dogs. Designate the show lines a different breed, because genetically, it has been proven they are. Follow the KNPV model and eliminate the standard and registries, outcross to other breeds, and come up with a new/actual breed worthiness assessment for police and military work. This notion of the GSD being versatile and Jack of all trades and master of none is holding the breed back as a police and military dog. There is no need for herding dogs. Other dogs can lead the blind and technology will remove the need for guide dogs. If people want to breed for pets, let them have a sub breed of the GSD or just use the show lines. I have said before, eventually it will be a mute point because technology will eliminate the need for dogs. Regarding Busecker Schloss and show lines, that was before the SV and others mucked up the breed that lead to the state it is in now, due to many of the reasons I have stated.

If you look at the Mal originally it was a herding dog but due to breeding of specific work type the Mal has changed arguably for the better and creating a new breed worthiness is a superb idea i was saying how i wanted to create my own because the current breed worthiness test which was supposed to be the IPO and Schutzhund is not good enough anymore and so there should be a new competition trial whatever you want to call it as well as a breed evaluation survey in order to make the breed better. The outcross is a good idea but what would you outcross it to i have not seen a single good mix GSD.

Where have you looked? There are definitely some nice GSD/Mal X mixes. Historically, early in the DS breed, DS's were crossed to GSDs with very poor results. And this is early in the breeds when three breeds were much more similar.The Mal is better as a police dog because it has been selected for that. Many would argue that the extreme Mal of today wasn't how the breed started out. Helmut Raiser suggested adding some Mal blood to the GSD and it has been done surreptitiously before. But he also stated that the GSD dog is not supposed to be like a modern Mal. I think he was more focused on addressing health issues than temperament. I think it would likely be better to outcross judiciously, and focus more on dropping breeding regulations and standards like requiring herding titles when the dogs are no longer true herding stock or dropping IGP titles when all pink papered show line GDS can obtain them, and disregard the breed standard because looks/structure have little to do with working ability as a police or military dog in the real world. At one time, certain structure had something to do with a dog's ability to herd all day, day in and day out, but that is not relevant today,and as you said, develop an actual breed worthiness test. Also, the best dogs that become police and military dogs are rarely bred or are not bred by knowledgeable breeders who know how to select the best breeding partners. As I said, by the time all this could get sorted out, police and military dogs will become obsolete. But I do believe people will want true working stock with certain traits simply because of the long relationship between humans and dogs and those who will want to own them. The question is, will they be banned like so called assault rifles which are essentially rifles with a clip and not automatic.

http://eurosportk9.eu/our-dogs/east-european-shepherd-veo/299/armani-bla-big/

Here is a link to an attempt by the Russians to improve on the GSD called the East European Shepherd. Scroll down to see some videos. Very unimpressive.The Slovak National Police might have a decent breeding program.

Hired Dog
i never seen GSD with such weight although know about american Shiloh shepherd with 
standardized weight above 100lbs for male dog and russian Easteuropean shepherd which 
also quite bigger than GSD.
that was just example for comparison. physic of mass which no one yet managed to revoke.
border dogs was also somewhat bigger and heavier than usual GSDs but mainly because more 
thicker, heavier bones and muscle mass.

apple

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