Training the Caucasian Shepherd - Page 2

Escobar, no I am in Canada.  My handle Brynjulf is indeed Norweign!  It is in memory of my best friends son Brian.  ( Brynjulf is Brian in Norske)  Brian was born with severe Downs and passed away. Twas my pet name for the very sweet very special lil man :) 

Anyhow I know the limitations of the breed.  That said he is not allowed to bite. Hence why he is here for training. I try my best not to do Kick and Stick training if possible. Fights just arent worth it. However due to the nature of the breed it may be required. Sigh I was hoping for a better solution :(  Dang it all anyhow. You just go to touch around his head and he goes off.   A different sort of critter that's for sure.  Definatley not my first pick for a family pet, they brought him over when they moved here from Germany.  To be honest I dont think there are many of the breed here. First one I have had my hands on in 27 years of training dogs.

Thanks for the reply. Thought I read somewhere you were British/Norwegian - my mistake :) Just curious as I'm likely moving to Norway.

Good luck with the dog, reading your threads you seem to get the creme dela creme of dogs ;) 

Yes I am a brit norsk mix :) Your info is correct.

Such is the lot of the professional.  I get the dogs that other trainers have worked with and given up on. ( I have a GSD here who has been through 5 trainers!!!  I LOVE this dog)  I get the dogs that are one step away from being put down.  We rarely see "good" dogs.  The dogs I typically see are hyper, destructive and dangerous. That said your reward is in success. Turning a dog around is very very rewarding.   I do work with one breeder in particular that sends me amazing dogs!!!  They are always wonderful and easy to train.  But the majority of dog training is bad dogs, sadly most of these have been made this way by their owners.  The current trend of food training learned online and the fur kid trend is keeping me fed. I often bounce ideas of our local boys before coming here for imput. Shoot it is the most common answer I get, not really helpful....

Brynjulf,
There´s a guy in Czech Republic who has a lot of experience in training especially hardly trainable and dangerous dogs and as far as I know he has dealt with Caucasian and Middle Asian shepherds,here´s his contact info  http://www.ivoeichler.cz/kontakt .
There are a lot of Caucasian and Middle Asian shepherds in Czech Republic and Slovakia.

First if he was bounced around for his 10 months with different owners(and never bonded) he is in different because of that ,,if he bonded with someone along the way he is waiting for that person ,but he is still young enough to bond ,thats the key with these guys the person bonded really should be the one training or being couched by a trainer, I had 3 ,2 rescues and imported my last one ,they really are a one person animal,everyone else is indifferent to them,they tolerate and love their family but only look to one person for authority above them ,thats why your thinking that he has no love of life, for food drive etc. ,,bond with him first ,but remember he is NOT a shepherd ,rottie or like anything else you ever trained, pm me if you like ,or email me burgerinpa@aol.com, they really could be great dogs in the right hands . definitely not for 90% of people that think they want one . 

We are trying something different.  I am not doing in kennel. I am going out to work with them at their ranch.  Strangely the dog is quite volitile with the husband .  One minute he is fine then he just goes off.  He has not offered to bite me other than the collar issue and I solved that right quick.  Anyhow with the hours of research, talking to breeders etc. It was decided this would be a better course of action.  I am still finding it odd how hostile the dog is to the husband.  He appears to be a rather gentle soul and they have had the puppy since the age of 9 weeks. Cage, i will get ahold of the fellow in the Czech republic if working with a breeder in the US isnt working out.  Again thank you to everyone for your imput.  I'm following Marinas ( and a Caucasian breeders) advice as well. Don't even think about getting a bond, just get the basics, a bit of respect for the family and that will be it.  If we can't stop the biting though not sure what will happen in this case.  He is just too big to be going into these rages :(

Hunger can be a good motivator.  Only feed it when it's being trained and afterwards.  Doesn't want to train - it doesn't get fed. 

Well as a long term owner, this is my advice.  First find the cause of the antagonism to the Husband.  Once an OC doesn't like someone it tends to stick.  He may have hit the wife who he bonded with and thus hates the husband for attacking her.  They have four types of bonds btw.  1.  Alpha Bond to their leader.  2.  Family Bond (this should not be misrepresented as the herd bond) they will listen to most commands form the rest of the family if authority by the alpha has been transferred.  Usually kept for teenagers and other adults or strong pre-teens  3. Herd, usually for all the domestics, livestock & younger children.  4.  Friends and "outside" family.  Each has its own characteristic.  You as a trainer want 2 but might get stuck in 4.  Have the Alpha in the family transfer your orders to him.  Even if the Alpha is poor the dog will listen to something.  Find the right command, ask the dog to do the command and have the Alpha in the family back you up if it is not done on your command.  Do this for the first few days / sessions.  This is authority transfer and works well with OCs.  Next you cant feed it.  They are suspicious of strangers feeding them and you will start off on the wrong foot.  Wait until your fifth to tenth session you can start to feed the OC.  You will know when he/she is ready as they will great you like long lost family.  Once that occurs you can now start training the dog.  Always keep the Alpha close by.  If there is no Alpha you have an almost impossible slog, you will need to have the bonds functional to train this beardog.  They are non-domestic in the traditional sense and have had cut-throat control on genetics for the last 3,000 years.  They bite family they die.  Kill a sheep or deer in the folk they die.  You are on a different set of rules than the standard shepherd.  They also have almost no pain threshold.  So negative reinforcement hardly works at all after six months.  But if the Alpha is strong and goes for the dog at 5 years old in an angry way, even a male, they squeal like a 4 week old poodle.  Dichotomy I know.  Get yourself into bond 2.  Then it is just drill and drill and drill until you push them into obedience.  Sessions should be 2 hours (careful of joint strain if under 1 year).  The dog will eventually just lie down on you and refuse to move.  Training should always be done with a muzzle.  They have stages of rage, if they reach the top one they can bite down at 650 PSI bite force, so no matter how touchy feely you are place a muzzle on Caucasians for everyone safety while training.  When they do drop on the floor have the family, Alpha go out of sight, and they should get up and you can carry on, as they don't like to have what they want to protect out of sight.  So step one transference of authority.  If there is no Alpha train the owners first to become and alpha and make sure the bond is there or it is almost impossible.  Return when the bond is in and one of the family is the Alpha.  Step 2 get to bond 2.  Come and spend time with the dog with little craning .... just gentle walking and "soft" activities until you get the bond of being part of the family.  This will take 3-10 days usually if the dog is male over 6 months.  Females 1-4 days at most ages.  When the dog greets you with tail waging and absolute love you have the bond, if the dog will at least listen to one or two commands.  You might get stuck in bond 3 or 4 and if that is the case .... then Alpha transference is necessary once again.  Step 3. Start with long exhausting sessions on 3 points rotating every fifteen minutes.  # items would be sit, stay and lay down.  Step 4. Response training ..... reactive training is about as far as you can go.  The CO is put in a position where his negative behaviour occurs and you correct, flick his ear, loud no, turn him away, etc ..... and keep doing it so until the behaviour is corrected, then request the Alpha do the same, then the rest of the family with the Alpha backing up when the response is slow or non-existent.  Normal shepherd training time would be 30 hours into advanced movements.  OC training times are 50 hours for the basic three sit, stay and lie down and even then the result will be slow after periods of no training.  They are what they are, loving and heavenly beautiful, protective without fault to the death, but they are not a DOG.  They are someting inbetween the domestic and the wolf in independence.  The above works, takes time, but works well.  never use heavy pain, shock or stick training.  A female might take it from an Alpha, but never the lower bonds, a male will turn on you and eat you once you are dead. Gentle knee pushing, slapping on the nose, newspaper & loud voice is about as far as you can go with this breed.  A heavy physical hand gets it returned here.  The Alpha here is based on the human's beingness, his strength of character, patience, persistence & intellect.  Not his ability to inflict pain.  After about 1 year they dont bond 1 any more btw.  Rarely will a rescue give him/herself totally to the owner alpha after that age, females are exceptions sometimes.  Good luck.

additions:  Once you are 2 bonded you can use food as a reward and the OC will repsond.   Find his favourite, they all have one, usually it is raw meat, loody and fresh.  Some like biscuits (organic non-animal product)  and even cheese (low fat) .  Food does work with a strong bond, little to no bond use of food will get you in trouble before the bond is set, even if they take while the family is around, they will not love you for it, usually the contrary.   

Just to say that I found Phip's post very interesting.  I have two Caucasians, a female of just under two years and a male of 6.5 months.  They are wonderful animals but very different to any other breed of dog that I have handled.  My two are brother and sister from different litters and they are of very different personalities albeit they are both food orientated.  They are clever but not in a subservient way.  Temperamentally by bitch, will not tolerate anyone beside myself and my husband, but right from a tiny pup she was not interested in interacting with anyone else.  The boy is very different, of course its early days, but in comparison to his sister he is very gregarious, loves visitors, with just a little more caution when away from home. To the female, as a small pup being walked down a  country road on a lead, everything new was potentially a wolf in car clothing, drainpipe clothing, tractor clothing etc!!! everything different was viewed with great suspicion.  Now she has more confidence but views strange people and things with distrust.  
This is not a  breed for everyone and I have a problem accepting that a dog that the owners have found necessary to have trained by a third party will ever be truly accepting of its owners.