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Prager

by Prager on 14 November 2018 - 04:11

amazing I agree with Black malinois.
Prager

by Prager on 14 November 2018 - 04:11

ValK That is an interesting question. what is the "more difficult dog to train". IMO more difficult dog to train is a matter of ability of the trainer. In other words, the dog does not fit into the system of training used by such trainer or LE dept.

RichCarne

by RichCarne on 14 November 2018 - 08:11

Regarding the video of Bourbon...

I'm not seeing what the narrator and others are seeing.

Unless some of you have access to information not shown in the video, then I can't see how it is possible to come to some of the conclusions reached.

Searching the A frame = Lack of training
Wanting to go straight to the blind where the helper is = Lack of training.
Biting when not supposed to = Lack of training.

I don't see anything in the video that indicates this dog would be a particulary good candidate for police work.

by duke1965 on 14 November 2018 - 11:11

have to agree with richCarne, lack of routine, lack of training, searching the blinds, this is what we regulairly see on a dog that is trained and trailed in his own club or some other small club, and brought to a footballstadium with bigger distances and more distraction

being "not clean" on the sleeve, doesnot make a dog police material

by joanro on 14 November 2018 - 12:11

I watched the video with sound off....and that's what some consider and great dog and police material?

He probably impressed his club members, so thought the Nationals would be a good idea. Dog was not trained up for the venue.
He looked bewildered as to what to do on blind search, so what the heck, might as well just run to the hot blind where he feels safe in familiar zone. On top of not knowing how to run blinds, he had weak munchy grips. 
By the time he got to reattack on the long bite, his nerves were so frazzled he could not control himself and the handler was meaningless to him. His frontal bites looked like fear biting.

Lack of training as others have said. The dog looked mediocre at best....not even breeding material, forget LE.

emoryg

by emoryg on 14 November 2018 - 12:11

Thanks for the input on the dog.  I enjoyed the video and agree with there being some training issues.   The dog has plenty of drive and willingness to work.  I did the same as Joanro and watched the video without narration.  She calls as she sees it. 

I caught the search of the a-frame.  It happens. The dog may have been running blinds flawlessly and then it goes to crap.  Venue?  Training?  Who knows.  I did notice when he searched he looked up into the blind, he did this when he was leaving the a-frame as well.  BTW, it’s not a tiny helper on a string that most dog use their binocular vision to look for.  I say most dogs, because some may be taught the old way and this could be one of them.  A dog can identify if a helper is in the blind as soon as his head cuts the corner.  Just my experience from back in the day. 

In my opinion, it was conflict that ultimately DQ the dog.  Based upon the proximity of the handler, you have to go in that direction.  That classic heading to the elbow, clamping down with his front teeth and shaking screams handler induced conflict.  It also looked as if the dog took a quick shot at the handler, which furthers the handler conflict scenario.  I could be wrong.  I’m sure the handler and helper have been working to clean that up.  And it can be fixed, but it often rears its ugly head when there’s a little more stress involved, ie, new place.  I didn’t see any issues when the handler was afar.  I thought the dog handled the drives and carry good.  I hope they tighten things up for the next event.  I would enjoy watching a good clean routine. 

The dog would have to be taken off the field, equipment removed and tested to determine his suitability for LE. 

 


by joanro on 14 November 2018 - 13:11

Lack of drive is seldom an issue with wg sport pedigree...but nerves to handle the high drive is. That is what I see in this dog...his nerve strength does not match nor measure up to the level of prey drive. And that is likely the basis of the handler conflict....dog does not have the nerves to cope with corrections.

Last time I worked a dog in the blinds, he did not need to look up to see if the decoy was there or not...in fact he knew the answer before he even got to the blind. Looking up is probably the dog trained to get the dangling ball....makes him appear to " search".

Emorg: It also looked as if the dog took a quick shot at the handler, which furthers the handler conflict scenario. I could be wrong. I’m sure the handler and helper have been working to clean that up. And it can be fixed, but it *****often rears its ugly head when there’s a little more stress involved, ie, new place.*****


Me: ***** And that is an indication of weak nerves. As for Testing this dog off field for LE ....he already has shown a "new environment" causes all his training to go to pieces, ie, weak nerves. Same with " taking a shot at the handler" ....weak nerves.
In this instance of any form of handler aggression is not done it out of strength but out of weakness. In other words, there was no unfairness by the handler, to which a very dominant dog would demonstrate his objection....but this dog could not take the pressure of the decoy in front of him concurrently with the pressure of the handler walking up to give a command that the dog didn't have the wherewithall to excute.

 

As for " it can be corrected" .....and that right there is why people don't trust high achievement sport for breeding selection......correction would entail training to " cover up" the weak nerves!

But as stated above, "it rears its ugly head when there's a LITTLE more stress involved". [emphasis mine]

yogidog

by yogidog on 14 November 2018 - 14:11

The video I see a confused dog does not know the routine.
Bad training.
Handler is not great either.
Searching the frame made me laugh.
He is working in drives he cannot handle either nerve problems or back to bad training.
There was a definite nip at the handler.
The jump in the bark and hold is pressure getting to him.
Would I have him for police work no. I would not breed from him and he would not be my type of dog. You can't fix bad nerves you may be able to patch them up as is done with a lot of sports dogs. Jmo

by joanro on 14 November 2018 - 15:11

The a frame search looked like he was "searching" for the dangling ball....like his brain is going; " I know! that ball is hanging somewhere! it ALWAYS is !! " Lol (example of training method come up to bite the handler in the azzz)

by ValK on 14 November 2018 - 15:11

emoryg
It also looked as if the dog took a quick shot at the handler, which furthers the handler conflict scenario.

joanro
And that is an indication of weak nerves.

dog are switching full blown attack from object to handler - weak nerves/temperament.
dog are attacking handler from frustration due to not being allowed to attack object in front of him - weak nerves/temperament.


dog nip the handler, when being consumed by the fight, isn't an indicator of weak nerves/temperament. only momentary reaction on possible new threat, followed by self correction.



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