The GSD - a phase-out model - Page 4

Centurion , that is my basic ' foundation' as only the starting point in my training of my pups
Strength in Numbers. All my pups are raised with the pack, hence my reference to gates and fences instead of kennels.
All my dogs are house dogs. It wasn't always that way,but as I learned and got a better understanding of the breed there could be no other way.
I been mocked here before when I stated that I get pups familiar with what is expected as far as the start of protection by going from window to window/ door to door knocking and hiding and onto the next.
Of course the big dogs know it is me, but they having just as much fun as I am pretending and the pups are learning what they expected to do when someone either knocks or just appears at the window.The pups feel like they are giants as they are backed up by all the others.
Same thing with getting away from their comfort zone. We go on hikes on a regular basis through the woods up and down the road.( I am fortunate to live on a dirt road on top of the mountain on my 8 acres surrounded by state land) We stop at my moms and they encounter other dogs so by the time my pups go to their new homes they have been prepped for a lot of different scenarios.
OB my dogs know they are expected to wait their turn. My grandkids can have out bones and treats without getting knocked down or losing a finger. I have been known to take four dogs at a time on my own to the rabies clinics and five or more on my own to the state park swimming on the backside of the lake.
And fat couch potatoes they are not even my old retired girls are still ready on a seconds notice to get up and go on an adventure .

Centurion , that is my basic ' foundation' as only the starting point in my training of my pups
Strength in Numbers. All my pups are raised with the pack, hence my reference to gates and fences instead of kennels.
All my dogs are house dogs. It wasn't always that way,but as I learned and got a better understanding of the breed there could be no other way.
I been mocked here before when I stated that I get pups familiar with what is expected as far as the start of protection by going from window to window/ door to door knocking and hiding and onto the next.
Of course the big dogs know it is me, but they having just as much fun as I am pretending and the pups are learning what they expected to do when someone either knocks or just appears at the window.The pups feel like they are giants as they are backed up by all the others.
Same thing with getting away from their comfort zone. We go on hikes on a regular basis through the woods up and down the road.( I am fortunate to live on a dirt road on top of the mountain on my 8 acres surrounded by state land) We stop at my moms and they encounter other dogs so by the time my pups go to their new homes they have been prepped for a lot of different scenarios.
OB my dogs know they are expected to wait their turn. My grandkids can have out bones and treats without getting knocked down or losing a finger. I have been known to take four dogs at a time on my own to the rabies clinics and five or more on my own to the state park swimming on the backside of the lake.
And fat couch potatoes they are not even my old retired girls are still ready on a seconds notice to get up and go on an adventure .

I don´t think I am "oldschool" at all, I just try to understand the scenario.

To be honest, I don´t even like "circle agitation" as a whole ( always refused to take part with young dogs ) - you like to "start" your dogs your way ( a way I never saw and don´t understand, maybe you should call it "circle agitation phase 2", because it has not much to do with any circle agitation I ever saw ).
In case it works, fine for your dogs.

For me there are some personal rules during training:

Me and my dog are the "team" on the field, nobody else, a helper is no team member at all
Me and my close family are the final "pack" of my dogs, not other dogs
I never agitate my own dogs but always support my dogs with my presence ( the "helper" is no "friend", but together with me my dogs feel unbeatable )
No helper is allowed to give any commands to my dogs ( that´s always only me, nobody else )

A dog that needs "support" from other dogs is not "my" dog,
and a dog that needs to learn bitework with me as a helper (early condition on prey only ) is not the dog I want to own.

What do your dogs learn during those sessions?

Daddy is playing with me
The others are not allowed to play
In case I don´t get the toy, the others may get it

How do you go on? Do you even go on?
In case at some point a real helper gets involved, does this helper have to use the same prey item, whereas he himself has to stay in the background until the dog is used to him?
Do the other dogs still need to be around to make the youngster feel good in the presence of a stranger, or is the green dog at that point that focussed on the prey item that it is willing to "forget" the human?

We are talking about totally different foundation work - out of decades of experience ( raising, training, titling, working ) I know "my" way of training works pretty well ( for IPO and for "real life" ) - but I am not that stubborn that I am not aware a lot of ways go to Rome - I just don´t understand your theorie.

I know you don't understand my theory ... and that is ok ... You probably aren't interested ... but in the event that I am wrong.. Susie you are welcome to PM me , I don't take offense to constructive, even if opposing views, When people legitamitely ask questions , I am open  to replying . But there are to many questions that you ask for me to answer in a thread.
I don't argue you last post. I deeply understand and comprehend ALL the principles of IPO /Sch and their application. I deeply do understand what you write and why you write your posts from your experiences. Yes there are diffferent approaches ... as there are different make ups for each dog. The difficulty , even for me having done Sch .. and that is what IPO should be called becaus that is what it is  , for some reason makes one so rigid in thought . maybe it is a rerflection that it is so choreographed , pattern trained that the way of thinking lends itself to being so inflexible. , so ingrained that there is no room for any other way or thought. Just something that I have often wondered through decades , having  been there and done that. 

I asked simple questions because I tried to understand you ( guess, I was "interested" )...

I always was a "outsider" in any clubs because I did NOT follow "rigid" SchH/IPO ideas, although I was pretty successful. I like dogs, but not "routines", always willing to think "out of the box".

Why do you insist on the name "SchH"?
When SV changed from SchH to IPO the reglement was not changed in any major aspects, the same when DVG changed from SchH to VPG ( IPO followed SchH rules, not SchH followed IPO rules, something people like to forget ). BEFORE SchH became IPO we used to perform in SchH first, later on "maybe" in IPO...at that time the IPO judges were able to change the pattern of the IPO routine during obedience - a lot of people didn´t like that, because it was not according to their trained "SchH routine" ).
That was long ago - most people won´t even remember...

A puppy trying to get some prey has nothing to do with the origin of SchH at all, but this puppy will be able to title in club SchH/IPO for sure.
Training style evolved, and although I really like ( and use ) the "positive" methods of modern training, in case of old fashioned SchH "hardness, courage, fighting drive" the "modern techniques" are not always that helpful in case of selection.
Worthful in tracking and obedience, those techniques are able to cover up a lot of temperament flaws in the breed, prey driven "only" dogs are able to title at least on local events.
Personally I don´t mind, that´s a lot more than "nothing", but less than "good" for me.

Guess it´s about totally different goals - I don´t believe in trained performance only, but in the mindset of ( at least ) my own dogs. Doesn´t matter, I won´t PM you, I thought this conversation is interesting for everybody, not only for me.

So , I give you some thoughts [ and the general readers more so ]..... I accept that you thought that having adult dogs platz while I work a puppy was perhaps over controlling , to much control. As I wrote I understand why . But think of these things in a different light :

In Ring sports we teach and expect that if a helper/decoy is moving and if the dog is on a bite , when the dog asked tout , is to out ,, it must Immediately out , movement or no movement by the helper and the dog must contain itself. That is reqiurement and expectation in the context of a combat situation. So , if I ask my dogs to platz , and they know I am interacting with the puppy , why is that so out of the ordinary when they are expected to not bite a decoy in bite suit moving or not , to not engage when I work a puppy ?

Two other examples , In Ring there is a call off 1 meter from the helper when the dog is to bite having been sent down the filed. If you can call off a dog on a send attack 1 meter as he is going for the bite, then is it that unreasonable when working a puppy , and the adult dogs know it is a puppy , in my case a 10 , 12 week puppy , to expect the adults to platz without an issue ?.

In both scenarios , the dog has to have self control , impulse control and having that impulse control .. does the dog loose the desire to do protection work . Of course not , no it doesn't in the least.

Last example : if you can call off a dog , having thrown a ball . Does that kill it's desire to ever chase a ball ? No !. Then how much difference is there to expect a dog to control itself when a rag is moving while working a puppy ? Will that kill the motivation for it to wrok ? No. Besides , even pet owners tech the dog 'to leave it' .....

This is the problem I have with IPO / Sch - locked into fixed thinking. The ol' days I would have had someone hollering at me because I am killing the dog's motivation [ or their stupid word , drive, which most don't know wehat it means ] . In Sch / IPO if the sleeve is moving the idea or theory is that to the dog the prey is alive and the dog has the right to bite a moving sleeve. Then they want to think the dog has been taught obedience . True obedience is out .. anytime , anywhere , any lace i any situation. Then I say the dog outs . Thos os no more different than you expecting your dog to 'sitz' when you tell it , isn't it ? To me , when I request the dog to 'out' I don't care .. out means out.. that's it. There is no issue .. people make issues. That is obedience , the dog willling and gladly performing , not merely complying. Compliance is NOT obedience. And, in the real world , if a Sch /IPO dog ever went to bite someone and that person is moving , then according to that way of thinking the dog was in the right to bite, if told to stop, because the person was still moving..

So , what else can I say Susie ....... No not different goals .. obedeince should be obedience, that clear cut .. the teaching is different. Like parents with out of control children that have anall ther excuses and [theory ] reasons as to why the child acts the way it does . when the rela reason is their faulty reason and failure to teach.

Sorry, but when someone tells me he agitates his own pups ( be it good or bad ) he clearly has "different goals" than me - and this is a neutral statement, no rating.

I only wrote a response to your comment, because you totally different interpret "circle agitation" than everyone else I ever met, talked to, or worked with, not more, not less.

"In Sch / IPO if the sleeve is moving the idea or theory is that to the dog the prey is alive and the dog has the right to bite a moving sleeve."

For someone who insists on the old name "Schutzhund" instead of " Internationale PrüfungsOrdnung" you don´t seem to understand the original meaning of the term "Schutzhund".

"Schutz" = "protection"

Although a prey driven dog may perform successfully as an IPO dog, or even as a police dog ( more than enough successful examples out there ), the GOAL of this dog is not protection, but prey.
The result ( points in IPO, the arrest of a bad guy in real life ) may be the same, but the intention of the dog is totally different.
Not important for IPO or "real life" scenarios, because at the end of the day only the results count - but in case of breed worthiness ( initial temperament, drives of the breed ) the difference is more than important, at least for me.

There was a pretty interesting topic not that long ago, when members discussed the differences of mindset in a dog, although the final "visible" result may be the same ( like barking for the ball instead for the helper/decoy in the blind ). Although the dog barking for the ball may even show the "better" bark that´s not the bark SchH / IPO initially wants to see.
Trainers make use of those tricks, because they work, but are those tricks helpful in case of selection?
Is it helpful for the breed in case a puppy learns to bite a prey item ( given by daddy ), out of play drive and jealousy, cause otherwise another dog may get it?
Does all of this have to do anything with the term "Schutzhund" you insist on?

Ringsport? It´s training, not more, not less, and besides some exceptions to the rule no dog in training has to "out" or " leave the helper" without reward during training ( for most a prey item in the hand of the handler, for others the re bite, just due to the drives of the dog ).
Doesn´t fit to "several dogs laying down for a whole bitework session".

Maybe off topic, but I didn´t only raise and train dogs pretty well, but my son became a very loyal, social, self thinking adult, too, neither suppressed nor neglected, able to listen, able to decide on his own, respectful and independant. Can´t have been too wrong...

kItkat forgot to address your post... Good for you .. at least you are on the same wavelength I am .. I think many people will not fully comprehend unless they have mulitple dogs like you and do what you can do .. good job handling your dogs .

There is a main difference between Kitkat´s scenario ( the "window" training like she described is a perfect, although unusual kind of "circle agitation" = all dogs actively involved, the youngster able to realise what`s going on and learning why, active support from the elder dogs ) and the kind of "circle agitation you gave us ( = passive dogs in a down stay, the pup on it´s own ).

Her pup = for sure amazed, maybe at first a little insecure, but totally backed up and supported by the adults
Your pup = playing, feeling comfortable because it´s about prey, a little jealousy involved, and the well known owner only

I never had the chance to either meet Kitkat´s dogs nor yours ( as you never met mine ), so it´s just an impression of descriptions, not more, not less

and all of those thoughts only because of your personal interpretation of "circle agitation" ... :)

Susie ,,,, try to understand.. for me this is not personal issue - just want to state that.

A group of dogs , some adults , a puppy , all in proximity , a circle , a line , any other aggrangement. There is flirt pole activity or rag wiggling activity ,irrelevant what the makeup of them are , strong , weak . There is a group ,there is stimulation [ BTW i prefer not even usew the word agitation but it is the lingo people are used to] . Sometimes we coin this 'group agitation' . Whatever the teminolgy .. to me doesn't matter. Anyone can call it what they want. My purposes at times , my expectations and the lessons that I teach are different , pending the dogs. As I wrote if a pup is not stimulated , yes .. I can turn the other dogs on and back tie them. The point being , and this I can agree with you on ..yea , I don't wan the pup thinking daddy is playing with me ... nor do I want the pup to choose to have the other adults playing with it. That is THE point ! I don't want the pup too feel that it wants to run play with the adults [ is stimulated by] Yes , I agree with you , I want a dog .. and mores so from a pup to not need dayddy or that it needs the support of the adults. [ I get back to that in a second ]. Call it group agitation if you will. The purpose into have the pup to work such that it disregards everything else but the task. I don't put the adults there for support , but to teach the pup to have such motivation as to ignore everything else . In doing that I can teach the pup biting skills , entry skills . I can choose to have the adults act up and spur on the puppy , in the same session , if I choose. The set up is the same , but not only the role my adults play , but also the role I play is what changes from your defintion to my defintion .

It is not about , prey * [ I don't think or even like to talk using the lingo prey /defense]... and of course any , any* 10 , 12 week pup would anyone with half a brain work a dog under pressure - I didn't even mention the word defense. I don't always think in those limitted terminologies. Yes , I work my puppies , simply because I can ..I can teach them . Also anyone else capable , too interacts with the puppy , I make sure of that in the puppy stage , work with different people !! I generalize helpers right from the start. All these things become the mental pictures of the dog .. If I put reasonable expectations on the pup with capability .. then those are the results I get from the pup.
How many times I have done circle agitation as you defined it : two weak dogs in a group of experienced , strong adults. And then I see , the weak dogs get stimulated with stimulation. Yes , they get stimulated by the other dogs barking, but ... the stimulation is towards the other adult dogs , not the rag. So would that not be circle agitation because the weak young dogs did't perform as thought ? To me it is still group , circle agitation. What I am saying is that whether the adult dogs influence the young dogs to do the work or not , being animated or inanimated , there is still a group of dogs young and old , in proximity with stimulation. That is the context. What each individual dog does or does not do ... that is what is important. BTW , my intention is NOT to be right or wrong.. I am simply being descriptive.
So to me , I don't really mind what something is called or not called . I just want results and the behavior ior that I reach I want the dogs to learn. I don't need to be right , I aim to have clear teaching concepts , that is what matter . Prey defense , line circle agitation , I don't get hung up on terms or lingo. All that I care about is : A group of dogs in the prescence of stimulation... the rest doesn't matter. In ending.. aside what the interaction is called , I was taking an opportunity trying to share some thoughts and teaching with the general readers. Again , not an issue of right or wrong.. but shared thoughts - any one can take them or leave them. For whatever value someone sees in it or not.
Again ,Susie , thank your for you comments ..... I enjoyed reading your feedback and explanations and reading what you expect and do with your dogs.