National Breeding Program for working dogs - Page 3

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by beetree on 18 November 2018 - 02:11

There is precedence for breeding for a specific task by a non profit organization in the USA by Fidelco, which has continued since the 1960’s. Their success has them deeming their breeding of GSDs as guides for the blind as “a breed within a breed”. Bavarian stock, they claim is the foundation for their success and continuation of their breeding program.

by ValK on 18 November 2018 - 02:11

Breeders often run on a dog or two from a litter, maybe do some initial work / training, then are happy for them to go to Police at 10 months or so - how is that " a litter or even half a litter" ???

Linda, above i did say about common belief.
if breeder can't distinguish prospect before pups reaches sale age (6~8 weeks), then he/she should retain bunch of pup until they does become sure about suitability, before get rid of them.
from my communications with breeders i haven't seen one, who withhold pups in hope to sell them to LE. all i see, such thing being practiced in hope to use pup in future for own breeding program. i don't saying there no such breeders, it just so far i haven't seen them.

by duke1965 on 18 November 2018 - 06:11

after reading all wisdom, I see why USA LE depends on european supply LOL

lack of knowledge of the matter makes it hard to have an opinion on it for most, 

running a breedingprogram for LE can give you an above average income, can be done in USA, but you got to breed quality over fame. simple as that

overagressive dogs ????who is breeding overagressive dogs,

litter I mentioned is 8 weeks, 2 go to KNPV, one to IPO, 2 go to family that raise them for me and 3 stay with me, this week, one from previous litter in KNPV I will buy back and one from family that I bring pup, will give back pup they raised from previous litter

but reading the comments, I guess it cant be done in USA, so that national breeding plan will fail I guess

 

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 18 November 2018 - 07:11

Did anyone actually read the article that this thread is about?

It is about detection dogs.
All dogs have noses, this work is not breed specific.

Why does the conversation always have to go back to GSD LE dogs and if they are aggressive enough or not?

Any dog can be a detection dog. They do not have to be a GS or Mal. So no, we don’t need a breeding program for detection ONLY dogs in the shape of gsds in the USA. Imo.
Every dog has an amazing nose...we don’t have to breed for this quality. The dogs are already out there and plentiful. Mixed breeds don’t always have the same health issues either. They are often more robust.

If you want to start this business in the US...
Learn how to test the dogs for these requirements from shelters...(try to change the policy if they don’t allow testing) and go and develop your contacts at DOD or the equivalent on a state level. Get your detection training connections....It is all about contacts and who you know. It is a small world.

I live on an island, and often take a car ferry to the mainland, sometimes several times a week. So I see A LOT of detection dogs. All kinds.

They go up and down every row of cars waiting for the ferry...several hundred cars per ferry load, a ferry often every hour...sniffing all day long. These dogs are never GSD’s or Mals.
They are lab mixes, retrievers, beagles, and loads and loads of unspecified mixed breed dogs. Usually not very big dogs either. They dont have to be big and powerful. They dont have to bite, they don’t have to take a man down. They just need to like to work, all day, never tiring, for their ball or whatever reward tickles their fancy. Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 18 November 2018 - 08:11

Quite ! As far as I can see we have also strayed into seeing-eye dogs (including ValK) which, again, does not rely on drives, suitability or potential for training for PP / hundsport / sleevework. But you can still spot a half-decent pup for anything at a young age if you know what you are doing dogwise.

There is absolutely no reason why one should not sell most puppies in a litter at 8 weeks but retain one or two to see if they work out for whatever your preferred purpose, and then offer them at a few months if they do not work out FOR YOU. I suspect far more of this goes on, even in the US, than Val credits. And certainly if you have people you trust who will work with you, you can raise quite a few of any litter on the lines Duke describes, without having them all stay home. After all, in the UK, Guide Dogs and Hearing Dogs use a lot of 'puppy walkers' to keep and train youngsters, from a couple of months to a year, before they are assessed for serious training in those disciplines.

@Val: As to witholding with an actual view to them going to LE, that, pardon my French, is 'arse about face' to the way a lot of people do it here !  The Police breed half their own dogs themselves; but they are still willing to accept gifts of dogs - and even sometimes buy them - which the breeder does not wish to keep into adulthood but which they can see are decent prospects for general police work. Means a lot of dogs have NOT been sold off cheap to a useless existence as a pet and had their potential wasted; and has also kept a fair few out of shelters.

by astrovan2487 on 18 November 2018 - 14:11

Jesse Jones is right about the program being about detection dogs, but I am sure that if the program is successful it will go on to include dual purpose dogs. The Penn Vet breeding program does this and I have a feeling this new program will very closely resemble it.

There was extensive research done for this project and they had a very detailed survey for working dog breeders, handlers, and trainers asking about what they thought was important to make a program like this successful. It had a lot of questions relating to using shelter dogs or mixed breeds and obviously the people filling out the survey did not have much interest in using those dogs. Not saying I agree with it but these would be the people working with the program so they are going by what they want.

Working in narcotics detection in the private sector I can say that every client I have worked with wants the dog to be seen by everyone. Everyone takes notice of a GSD or Malinois and the public generally shows them a lot more respect then a mixed breed or more "friendly" breed would.

by duke1965 on 18 November 2018 - 21:11

astro, huntingbreeds are in growing demand for opposite reason, that they dont scare people as much as a shepherd breed, working in crowded areas

and however, every dog has a nose that functions, it takes a heap more than that to pass as a LE prospect for detection job, test for borderpatrol, DOD etc are not simple so you cant go roundup dogs from craigslist and shelters to fit the bill, but if you breed the right dogs, and raise pups well you can create top prospects

by astrovan2487 on 18 November 2018 - 22:11

There is definitely a whole hell of a lot more then a good nose to be a good detection dog.
Using shelter dogs has been tried and has limited success. If it were the best way of obtaining detection dogs then it would be used regularly.

by ValK on 18 November 2018 - 22:11

overagressive dogs ????who is breeding overagressive dogs,

litter I mentioned is 8 weeks

you wasn't involved with GSDs used for patrol purpose back in 70s - 80s, didn't you?
they weren't bred for over the top aggressiveness. just during mating selection there wasn't fear that some part of offsprings could have more aggressive temperament than desirible. you cannot have decent dogs, dominant toward human (which a must in LE/military apps), by breeding exclusively soft, submissive, highly obedient dogs as it is common today. there were reason why at border service 4 month was allocated for newly drafted recruits to work in pair with old handlers, before dogs was transfered under their handling.
8 weeks plenty of time to observe and put the pups through different types test to figure out their potential.

Jesse you're right that for detection, S&R purposes any dog will do well on condition that that dog has great interest and patience/stubbornness in pursuing that task. as duke said, it seems security at public places even prefers smaller, less intimidating to general public, types of dogs.

by duke1965 on 19 November 2018 - 02:11

valk, we are talking today, not 40 years back, and there is a big difference between soft and overagressive, many people seem to have problem to recognize the difference between handleragressive and civil agression, both come from total different origin within a dog

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