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by desert dog on 03 July 2011 - 17:07
That is genetic. Yes confidence can be helped , and the way most dogs are used now days probably good enough for their intended purpose. But I wouldn't want to go to war with a dog I had to "Make".
2= I never said defense was based on fear, fear is only what triggers it
Defense is the ability to move past fear. Real defense should never be based on fear but ,confidence. Please understand what I'm saying, even if you disagree.
A dog can be full of fear and stay in defense until he quits or runs off, in fact always will. He has no where else to go.
Hank
by desert dog on 03 July 2011 - 17:07
Hank
by ALPHAPUP on 03 July 2011 - 22:07
Hank you did not say that defense was base on fear .. i beleive , unless i misread , jeff ohlsen had written that a few posts back .. that is what i am addressing. if i misread that line . i apologize .. but i stand on my outlooks .
by desert dog on 03 July 2011 - 22:07
Hank
by Jeff Oehlsen on 04 July 2011 - 02:07
Courage is what should be measured when it comes to defense, not the degree of fear that triggers it. Then you have to start measuring sharpness and hardness, All inherant. We give ourselves to much credit in the developement of good dogs. If it isn't there to start with You can't put it there. Hank |
Ok, 1st guy likes jumping out of planes. 2nd guy is scared to death, and pisses himself every time he jumps. Who has courage ?
Quote: While fear is the trigger to defense, a dog should never move into defense in that same state, if he does he won't be there long. He should be confident he can win to the point he doesn't. If you read all the posts from dog owners, they all have dogs that are strong on courage, my thought most are until it is tested, and then there aren't to many.
I am not a tester. Not anymore. Whatever a decoy can do to my dog in a trial legally is all I need to see. What I would caution, is that many people read this stuff, do not really understand or misinterpret what is said and do stupid shit to their dog. There are plenty of dogs out there that do not respond to defense, simply because they do not believe the helper is a threat.
Then, because the helper, or handler feels a "need" to "balance" the dog, spend way to much time trying to do so. A lot of new people seem to think that a high prey dog is not balanced, and from what I read, they think that the dog is kinda mental. If a dog is confident, loves to bite, and has high prey, there is no need to waste time "balancing" the dog. The dog will either do the job, or it will not, and if it is a PP dog, or PSD, until the dog has proven himself, no one should place their lives in it's hands.
Me, I do sport. I do not need all this whipping. If the dog needs that, then it's thresholds are too high, and it is not going to do well in the sport that I participate in.
by desert dog on 04 July 2011 - 04:07
And Like you if it isn't there when he is born, I don't want him.
As far as jumping out of a plane, For years I flew all over Alaska working pipeline in planes that were pure junk, but never flew in one I thought I'd want to jump out of. Guy 2 took more courage to jump if he made the choice himself. If he was kicked out screaming, then #1.
And you are right alot of dogs never see a decoy as a threat
Hank
by ALPHAPUP on 04 July 2011 - 05:07
ok .. i have another thought for the readers . : a GSD high in aggression , high in hardness .. i have worked them , seen them .. and some of them .. they wouldn't bat an eye to hesitate to turn around and tag the handler even when corrected . so given the previous posted statement," defense is based in fear" , i guess the dog that tags /bites it's handler is in fear and decided to defend itself ? .. i guess by some previous posts .. that would have nothing to do with the dog thinking it was superior in rank .. nothing to do with the dog having no qualms about vehemently expressing his protest, no consideration that the dog undoubtedly feels and thinks that it is in control and is going to let you know it .. if one wishes to continue to think ALL defensive behavioral responses originate from fear .. good luck .. if you wish to categorize & confine behavior with general , vague terms like this or that "drives" .. que sera sera ..
by alboe2009 on 04 July 2011 - 07:07
In the 80's there was a series of videos, "Faces of Death" and one of the videos showed a, I believe junkyard or auto lot, fenced in with guard dogs. I think three, four or five. I believe all were GSDs. Two teens climbed the fence and were inside. On the edge of the screen you see these two running for their lives for the fence. The first one makes it over. The second got up on the fence but the dogs grab a hold of his leg and pull him down and then it's over. Those dogs had a job to do, (even though it appeared extreme) and loved it and would do it every time I would think by what I saw. I have never owned dogs like those. I have seen some on the fields and a couple of my buds have a dog or two like those. Myself, along with a decoy have been bitten by one.
My first service dog was a Mal. and boy, at times I was cautious of/with that dog. I could be a couple of inches away and he would be teeth slashing and growling only a couple inches away from my face. We were still learning each other but I was the only one that could be around that dog, close proximity. You couldn't come near the vehicle, and another handler with their dog couldn't come near the vehicle or us!
by Jeff Oehlsen on 04 July 2011 - 08:07
The other thing is many dogs will never be truly tested, as they are in drive when all the goofy shit is going on. Then, we have lowered the bar in sports, so that people can have success, and dogs don't run and embarrass handlers. God forbid fluffy runs off in a trail.
Defense, and the pressure that is put on the dog through it, is something that I just don't think that too many people understand, and they damn sure don't want their helper making fluffy have the shits every time after training.
I saw a car advertisement that said "genetic" engineering. I use this to illustrate how many people alter reality to fit their opinion of what things should be, and stick their head in the sand when reality is shown to them. I watched fear factor, and some short fat kid was telling everyone how he "had this" and how he was going to put the smack down on _____ whatever the kids name was.
Then, reality bit him in the ass. He had to drop into the water, and couldn't swim. Yet he was willing to run his mouth like that, and was so scared, he hung on to the helicopter way too long, finally dropping because he couldn't hold on anymore.
They had to save him.
This is how I see a lot of dog people. It is a dog, and you should train it to the best of your ability, as that is what is "PC" to say. I say have the helper put some pressure, and see if your dog melts. Hell, see if your helper even knows how to put pressure on the dog. Whipping is not pressure, it is frustration. LOL
by Jeff Oehlsen on 04 July 2011 - 08:07
Words like defense, and prey pretty much no longer matter when you figure out how to make a dog bite. Some even didn't want to out, further faking people out.
Try and come up with some terms to describe what the dogs "feelings" were. It damn sure was not fear of the helper that took the dog down the field.
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