I think treat training is cruel. - Page 16

Emoryg, glad you liked them:-)

Btw, both those dogs, the one in the video with all our egg layng ducks, and the one with meat producing goats, are very civil, rock solid nerves and will not hessitate to bite without any prey moves...Otis is a one in a thousand dog.
The other dog went to man to become a cadaver dog and personal protection.

You know Prager...
I must be getting like you...I could’nt even stop to read all the stuff you wrote in the last post.

I just skimmed it.

You know why?

Because, once again, after all I wrote, you still do not seem to understand the CONCEPT of marker training.

And your last post shows that you have no idea WHEN and for WHAT marker training is used for.

And, for cricky sake, STOP calling it all POSTIVE TRAINING !!!!!!!
I think you have it mixed up with some other pet training where the dog can do no wrong and we have to coddle the dog. That is NOT what marker training means.


 

Jesse, it's beyond his experience and no point wasting time trying to open a sealed door....ain't happening.

Skimming his posts...me too. In fact I might read first and last sentence by quarters...dividing pagelong posts into quarters.

 

Btw, thank God you're nothing like him O:-)

Oh Joan...
Do I have a “teacher” complex or what???
Why do I bother. 😆

Duke-
Don’t fall into Prager’s web that he is weaving.
Marker training is NOT only positive, lovey dovey, hearts and unicorn, training all the time. That is only in HIS imagination.

Ideally the positive reinforcement is used to TEACH the behavior. But not when the dog blows you off after he knows better.

But you have to be FAIR to the dog, and teach correctly in the first place.

Prager-

There is so much misunderstanding about maker training in your last long comment, that technically, I would have to go through each paragraph of your post to comment on why most of it does not pertain.

In the meantime study this (or not):

Dog shows Behavior➡️ mark that behavior IN TIME (spit second) to communicate to dog THAT is what you want him to do ➡️ reinforcement.

Reinforcement is not a reward.
You are, in otherwords, operantly conditioning the dog.

“Reinforcement” is anything used to INCREASE the likelihood of a behavior to happen again.
“Punishement” is anything used to DECREASE the likelihood of a behavior happening again.

We can add the term negative or positive to either reinforcement or punishment.

Neg. TAKES AWAY something.
Pos. ADDS something.

We use ALL these things in marker training.
BASTA.






 

Prager says:
Then you basically say that when sh1t comes down you use a pinch collar and if of the leash you use Godly booming voice to correct the dog.

Let me remind you that the scenario used was about “dog reactivity” when in loose heel downtown and being ‘surprised’ by another dog on leash, coming round the corner ending up in sudden close proximity. My description was an emergency drill.

Of course I have taught my dog the meaning of no as a puppy. Who doesnt? Is there anyone that doesnt?  And in this case...who is going to whisper a “no”. I can whisper my “no” on other occasions. Heck...I do not even have to whisper...I can just grunt without opening my mouth, and my dog will correct himself usually, depending on the distraction.

But Dog reactivity is an autonomic nervous system reaction. Fight or flight. A visceral or gut reaction, in other words. It does not fall into the same category of chasing cats, which is a self-rewarding prey behavior.

So, no, it can not be dealt with in the same way as correcting a dog from chasing a cat. You should know this.

It can take a lot of work, slow and methodical, in order to change the dogs visceral reaction. One might be successful, but maybe with a certain type of dog, not be very successful.  And that can not be done with marker training, that I know of. Nor would I try. I do not advocate, for GSD anyway, the use of making the dog sit, when another dog passes, and then try to give him a treat for not reacting to the other dog, walking past him at 5 ft distance.

Do you know what most reactive dogs would do at that point? They wouldn’t even see you with a silly treat in your hand. Even if you tried stuffing it into their mouth. Why? Because this is a flight or flight scenario.
BTW, the making the dog sit and treat giving is probably what you expected me to say, and why your chose that scenario in the first place. 

Hang on...I’m not done yet...

LOL, I’m just getting warmed up.

Jessejones:
Dog shows Behavior➡️ mark that behavior IN TIME (spit second) to communicate to dog THAT is what you want him to do ➡️ reinforcement.

Reinforcement is not a reward.
You are, in otherwords, operantly conditioning the dog.

“Reinforcement” is anything used to INCREASE the likelihood of a behavior to happen again.
“Punishement” is anything used to DECREASE the likelihood of a behavior happening again.

We can add the term negative or positive to either reinforcement or punishment.

Neg. TAKES AWAY something.
Pos. ADDS something.

Jesse, what you will do if during training exercise, let's say obedience, very dominant dog (for only to him known reason) won't obey and responds violently to handler attempt to correct?

Valk says:
Jesse, what you will do if during training exercise, let's say obedience, very dominant dog (for only to him known reason) won't obey and responds violently to handler attempt to correct?

Hi Valk-

I wish I could answer that with a magic recipe. But, as we all know....the only answer possible is the famous “it depends”.

That is the only answer one can give online, without seeing the dog and knowing the whole situation. And I know this sounds hookey. But nonetheless it is true. 

What is the situation?
Put yourself into the dogs place...ask yourself, why is he aggressing against the handler? For what correction? What is the correction? What is the strength of that correction? Does the dog really know what the handler wants him to do? Does the dog feel the correction is unfair? Has too much pressure been put onto this dog? Is the dog genetically a weak nerved dog trying to hide his fear (I generally don’t like using the overused term “weak-nerved”, but for clarity I’ll use it). Was the dog mistreated? Is the dog sick or in pain and the handler doesnt know it?

Also important is:
Did the handler train this dog from a puppy?
What is being taught...who did the teaching”
Is the dog new to the handler?
How much TIME does/did the new handler have to teach the dog something?

And many more questions.

Only then, can we find a solution for that particular dog and that particular situation.

Once you have those answers, the remedy might include correcting the holy hell out of him (not desirable though)...but it might also only be....slow down...rethink...go 5 steps backwards with the training, and respark his motivation.
 

jessejones, I dont agree with a lot prager is writing, but if he writes something I agree with, I am free to say that I agree with him 

Duke-
Yes you are.

Jesse, me and other folk in club did trained those dogs, from age 5~6 weeks to age 10 month.
it's not "handler aggressive dog" issue. at some point of growing, some pups as soon, as changed their teeth, some later, nevertheless, majority of those dogs did that challenge call.
in that circumstances they don't care about rewards. neither they afraid of punishment, that's just their nature does try to speaks out in action.
so how you will act in that situation?