Would you breed a blue mal? - Page 10

Hired Dog
that dog was backed.
subjugation of perpetrator in next few seconds have been taken over by humans. on such condition this can do any relatively decent dog.
we still don't know how that dog could respond, facing not frightened, running away person but someone who's boldly counter attack, using own advantages of size, strength and intelligence.
possible three scenarios of outcome :
- dog disengages and deserted that fight
- dog remains in fight and was suppressed due to lack of mass, strength and experience to confront superior opponent
- dog continues the fight and thanks to own strength, mass and experience was able to avoid being incapacitated and even manages to overpower that opponent.

Excellent, but, you still did not tell me why these violent confrontations do not happen as much as you perhaps think.

You are correct that humans, handler and other officers jumped in and helped, that is the job, to help other officers when they need it, but, again, why is it that suspects do not get into violent confrontations with police dogs?
Does it happen, sure, but, not nearly as often as you think it does, so, why not?

i agree that extreme confrontation happen very rarely.
none of my dogs faced such situation other than during the training. in real life i did witness only one such fight.
look, my point not about odds but about ability of dog to handle it if this happens.
there were good reason why border breeding preferred big and strong dogs and protection training was totally different
from what today uses sport and LE.

Very well. So, since these confrontations happen very rarely, we have no idea, as you so vehemently claim, that none of these dogs you have seen here could handle the type of fight you so fondly speak of.
They happen very rarely because the vast majority of "bad guys" are too busy trying to run and hide and when caught/confronted by the dog, they are even busier pissing and shitting themselves.

My point is that the intensity some of these dogs put out that apple, for example, posted, is not something that most humans are capable of dealing with. You keep forgetting one of the biggest factors Valk, the psychological effect these dogs have on humans.

Protection training in a Communist State 50 years a go was a primitive affair in a place with no concern of any lawsuits or defense lawyers or constitutional rights or human rights.
Now, how many of today's dogs can actually battle a man in a circus like environment, dog VS man, I have no idea. I do know that several of the dogs posted here by apple, yes, those Malinois X's, would "own" a human, if given the chance. I also know that I could not sit back and watch my dog fight a human or another dog and just watch.

It occurs to me that there really is no 100 % way of telling what a particular dog is capable of, e.g. in an emergency. We in the UK have Police Dogs - many still directly descended from German 'showline' stock - that in training / exhibition & display scenarios maybe do not appear to have great intensity about their performance; but these same dogs when faced with a real-life situation have gone above and beyond.

Dogs which have been stabbed, for example, when sent to stop a suspect and the suspect has fought back rather than run, or give up to avoid being bitten, and yet the dog has pushed on and 'got their man' and/or defended their handler against assault. How to explain or illustrate that dog's abilities to do this in extremis without a 'real' attack on the dog ?

So, late to the party and it seems like the thread is on a different topic. But to answer the OP I do not believe in breeding dogs that have a significant fault like that no matter how good the dog is otherwise. There is no dog SO FANTASTIC that its traits can't be found in a different dog that doesn't have a disqualifying fault.

If I needed a working dog then colour wouldn't bother me.

The other consideration is subjective; how much of a fault is significant enough to not breed.

Yeah but ... I think what we have been hedging around here is WHETHER being Blue is a 'significant fault' - and if so, why ? I don't even know yet from this Topic whether it is forbidden by the Mali's US or FCI Standard, nobody having said (and I have not looked it up). In the UK Standards, it is, by the unequivocal repetition of a sentence about Belgian Shepherd varieties being defined by their coat type and colour.  That seems to be a denial of opportunity;  that a pure Mali would not have access to Blue in its genetic make-up in the first place.

The GSD Standard OTOH specifies that the dilute colours are unwanted; but you can still Register a Blue specimen as purebred with our Kennel Club, even if there isn't much point in Showing it because it would be marked down.  But really, if the colour does not actually impact the quality of the dog in other ways, why continue to 'ban' it ?

 

FCI Malinois color blue is NOT allowed

NVBK pedigree  Malinois  blue is no problem

 

What I noticed here in Holland  for a few people the color blue is just a money thing pups are  sometimes more expensive

A useless hype brings nothing to  improve the breed when breeding only on colour

 

Johan77,
The best Mal X's are better than the best GSD in a number of ways. You have to consider the breeding and training programs of the Dutch/KNPV compared to the SV or any national club/registry that follows FCI requirements. Those factors alone effect selection and the gene pool. The best Mal X's are faster, more agile, have significantly higher prey and fight drive, higher threshold for defense, much more intense entries, shark like strikes and fewer health problems. When was the last time you saw a GSD almost knock out a decoy? Even though there are some GSD breeders who are not hung up on point dogs and looks, the gene pool is dominated by those breeders who are and have been for a while and valuable genetics have been lost. If the SV had taken the breed in a different direction, the situation might be different. IGP is not set up at all to select for police dogs. Even though KNPV is still technically a sport and itself has become diluted and the market has less of a demand for old style super hard, aggressive and dominant dogs, the sport, training and breeding programs are such that they are set up to produce much better police dog candidates. I am talking the cream of the crop of both breeds. There are some excellent GSDs out there, they are much harder to find and have more health problems. Look at the percentage of HD between Mals and GSDs. Part of market demand affecting supply/selection for the Mal crosses has to do with too many buyers having to return dogs because they are too hard and dominant for their handlers to handle. You can look at that as a plus or minus, but in terms of overall intensity and ability to stop a man, the Best Mal X's are the best. Now there are plenty of Mal X's that are primarily prey based dogs only, with their intense prey masking nerve issues and that are too small to be man stoppers, but they are not the crème de la crème. Valk mentioned how at one point the Czech/Slovak dogs filled the void where there was a lack of LE dogs and then the Czech/Slovak dogs became more commercialized (infused with sport lines.) But what he didn't mention is that while some of those Czech/Slovak dogs had good aggression, it was primarily based on defensive aggression and progressively fight drive, competitive aggression, whatever you want to call it, was eventually lost and you ended up with dogs that lacked active aggression and fight. Often then, these defensive dogs instinctively want to chase the threat away rather than defeat it and where at higher risk for flight or avoidance.

Black Malinois,
You mentioned that PSA is dominated by Mals and many are non FCI Mal X's. But I will say the vast majority of those dogs, if any, are not the extremely hard, tough aggressive Mal X's were are talking about here. The reason is because, IMO, the biggest fault of PSA is that is has ridiculous expectations of the dogs in the higher levels to not bite when a decoy is egging them on to bite them. The super strong Mal X's would try to take the decoys out and be disqualified. This is an example of the pros and cons of a sport. PSA, IMO, does a much better job than IGP in finding nerve issues, even though, some of those nerve issues are masked in the Mals because their prey drive is so intense. And as I said, the PSA 2 and 3 dogs are not going to be the man stoppers we are talking about. A good breeder in the US breeding for police dogs would never breed a PSA 3 dog with the goal of producing police dogs. This is not so much different than the best KNPV titled police dogs typically having just have their PH1, and some barely get that because of control issues rather than weakness.