See, I think we are talking about 2 different things here - at least I am. The original question (or my interpretation) was would you use a dog that as a pup needed help with its ears and now we have gotten to a dog whose ears are floppy....
I would not use a dog whose ears flopped around like helicopter propellers... have been told by an AKC judge that they don't gait on their ears - ridiculous statement, imo. I would never have used that dog nor would I have been the judge who put him up as Grand Victor. Yup, happened to be an AKC show...One puppy, however, to me is not a reason to stop using the parents immediately and completely... some careful research needs to go into who gets used with who and how those pups fared... Like all things involved in breeding, most problems are going to take more than 1 litter to determine who is carrying the problem...
Please remember I am talking only about ears here, there are other conditions that would cause me to stop using 1 or both parents..... hope I have made myself clear
Sorry DKiah, I do believe I am talking about the same issue. Thin or Soft tissues that won't allow the ear to stand on it's own or are too soft to stay erect, ie., flop or tip.
I am not saying it is a health issue. I think it is something that should be thought about carefully. Right now it not something that is seen in every bloodline.
it is too bad that you can't complain about dog show judges and have it looked into, like you can with horse show judges. It sounds like the AKC judge you talked to, needs to be reviewed and have his judging card revoked.
As for one pup not proving a trait. If it is a recessive trait it proves both parents carry it and are passing it. Which also means that any or all of the litter could carry and pass on the trait. Even on a multi genetic trait, you know it had to come from one or both of the parents. You can't get rid of any genetic trait by just culling the puppies that show up with it.
Barney, you are right that this 'breeder' has problems. She has convinced herself, or has beed told by a very well known, very poor, breeder, that all breeders have to tape ears in every litter. He also told her that every stud produces mono-orchid puppies.
She has convinced herself that every dog she breeds has to be bred, whether the buyers want to breed or not.
I started this conversation to get people to think. Maybe start to rethink or brcome aware of breeding practices like hers. I know "Good Luck".
"As for one pup not proving a trait. If it is a recessive trait it proves both parents carry it and are passing it. Which also means that any or all of the litter could carry and pass on the trait. Even on a multi genetic trait, you know it had to come from one or both of the parents. You can't get rid of any genetic trait by just culling the puppies that show up with it."
If a condition is truly recessive (ie long coat, black, megaesophagus etc -) then obviously it is easier to determine the appropriate next action or non action... but in ears for example, you can't tell who is responsible (because it could be just one of the parents but might also be both - God someone was NOT doing their homework)until you see more progeny out of one or the other bred to different lines..... And it is possible that littermates won't be affected or carry a particular fault..... in most of these cases... I don't profess to be a geneticist by any stretch of the word but have seen, bred and researched many litters and combinations... just reporting my findings
sorry - as long as judges choose to pin dogs with the fault it will be bred. I attended a show with 5 or 6 dogs in the adult class -untitled - one huge, hairy, wobbly legged highline dog...the rest working lines. Guess what. The oversized "very masculine", near coated "full, a bit long", "soft ears", "loose hocks, ???back" dog won the class. He was at the back of the pack, could not keep up and did/was not "show/n well" as was teh excuse given on the placements of some working line dogs. If the dog had at least been an obviously close representation of the type winning, it would not have been so bad. But as these faults are being pinned, so the faults will be perpetuated. This same judge put up oversized near coats in every class in which they appeared.
LOL - it must be raining over half the US - so many new posts on a saturday afternoon!
"Kerry what you said about the pup being in a crate too much concerned me. Any pup from 8 weeks to 16 weeks that is in a crate that long is going to have other problems other than just their ears. That kind of confinement can cause physical and behavorial problems."--anika bren
Yes, you are sadly correct. Indeed, this is a problem. My experience with this is from caring for someone's fine little bitch (pick of the litter) that had funky, dirty ears from sitting in a crate for several months, with a littermate that she apparently fought for food, as her ears were also chewed. Also, from sitting in that crate, she was permanently cowhocked, skinny, and needed so much socialization that her rag work was with burlap like the size of a handkerchief. Too bad, but this is how this breeder kept 30+ dogs. My role was to prepare her for a show, if I remember correctly. I tried to help her, but she was beyond help. She was healthy with meat on her bones when I returned her. :(
Kerry- It makes me sad to hear stories like that. There are so many breeders that do stuff like that. Too bad, breeders like that couldn't be lock up in and area that they can't stand straight in or lie out flat, and see it it would make them more compasionate.
Kougar- You are so right. When was the last time anyone saw an oversized dog measured?
DKiah- I have taken courses on genetics as pertaining to breeding of livestock and horses. Have you?
Done a lot of research on my own, lots of practical experience(20+ years) and lucky me I have a GSD friend who is a geneticist and she is SO helpful with all the really technical things..... her chosen field is a blessing and the fact that she is a GSD person, is doubly wonderful....
Is this a test?? Did I pass??
"Too bad, breeders like that couldn't be lock up in and area that they can't stand straight in or lie out flat, and see it it would make them more compasionate."--anika bren
I agree with you. Even animal control couldn't keep up with this person, whom I call a very "twicky wabbit."
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