A "De-Barked" Dog??? - Page 2

I wonder how many folks who consider surgical debarking to be cruel have housecats which are declawed? ;^) Both procedures are designed to prevent an animal from executing a perfectly normal behavior because some human(s) decided the behavior was a nuisance. I've seen no evidence that either procedure causes any psychological harm to the animals involved; to the contrary, it tends to make life more pleasant for the dog or cat, because its owners are no longer fruitlessly trying to curtail a natural behavior. I've had debarked dogs in the past (not GSDs-a different working breed). The dogs had no idea that they weren't making the same amount of noise they'd previously made--and they were *far* less stressed after I had them debarked, because I wasn't constantly running out to the kennel and 'shushing' them if they barked at something. It wasn't my first choice, but it also wasn't done to solve something that was a training issue--it was done to circumvent an obnoxious neighbor who made noise complaint reports when the dogs weren't even in the same *state*. Since we're talking about 20 kennel dogs, bark collars weren't workable, and frankly, I don't think it's fair to expect a dog to be 100% silent all of the time, either...but that's what this neighbor felt was necessary. (And no, this wasn't in a residential area. The neighbor's place was over an acre away from the kennel area.) When done correctly, the dog suffers no ill effects, and can still make a harsh, cough-like sound...but it's at a *much* lower volume than even the quietest of barks. The downsides to the procedure: some dogs can develop scar tissue on the severed vocal cords, which could impair breathing under stressful conditions; and in some dogs, the severed cords manage to heal in such a way as to make the cord whole again, which means they regain their barking volume. Zoe is entitled to her opinion, but frankly, I think it was a rather harsh indictment of anyone who has found it necessary to have their dog debarked. It's a very intolerant world we live in, and sometimes the problem doesn't stem from a training issue--sometimes the cause is a neighbor who considers children screaming in the street all day long on a summertime Saturday afternoon perfectly acceptable, but phones the police the minute someone's dog barks at a squirrel for a few minutes mid-day.

I'd like to thank everyone for their input. All has been helpful. I must say, the person that I've decided to get this dog from has very nice dogs, all trained and "if I were a dog" I would be happy at this kennel. I was told by this owner that "I could" show this dog and they have shown and titled dogs that have been de-barked. I asked why they debarked their dogs and they informed me that this way the dog did not need constant admonishment for doing what comes natural. Their (kennel owners) nerves were saved and no longer any complaints from distant neighbors. I just wanted to ask others if this was really true. I guess letting the judge know that the dog has been debarked is a must but other than that I'm happy with all of your opinions. I will purchase the dog. Thank You Very Much!!! Everyone of You!!! Leo

Laris-I did¿nt adress the subject of electrical-collars since it did not eaven enter my mind. This way of training ones dog is ,to me aswell as legislators and the public of Sweden,an appallingly cruel and unnessesary method. Tests have shown that use of such "tools" often cause neusosity and sevear stress in mamals.Especially mamals such as dogs,where physical punnishment and violence is never used in the natural form of exsistance(wolves). Further tests have shown that to regain the dogs trust after one session of this ,aswel as extencive use of choke-collar,will,if eaven possible,take anywere from several months to over a year. This last type of test was,to my knollige, latest conducted by the swedish military dog-unit.The results led to the use of such methods being banned from use in their training. Many instructors who are of the "old school" still use choke-collars in this mannor and since animal-wellfare and animal-rights are of the lowest priority not much is being done to stop this. Kerry-As everyone that I know ,and know of,that have experience or huge interest in the use of animals in areas such as with police and the military,not all dogs are suited for life in kennels.This is actually the main reason that dogs that have already started training are rejected. If one is unlycky enough to get a dog ,that one had planed to have placed in a kennel,with this problem the natural an logical solution is to hous it indoors with one self and ones family.With training and sociolication no dog is impossible to train in a possitive direction.As I see it when one decides to add another creature to ones family one emediately take on the responcability of caring for this animal,just as one would for a child. Therefor it would be,not only natural but also,necessary to know that one might have to change the way onehade planned to take care of it.for instace keep it in a kennel or in the house. Hexe-Good question.I look at declawing in the same way as any other form of mutulation. It too is a way to modyfy an animals natural behaviour when one has failed to do so through training. Nothing that has such simple causation such as scratching or verbilication is impossible to improve. It¿s as simple as improving any other "problem-behaviour"

I¿m not aware of what laws might apply to animals and/or their owners in th US. If anyone could enlighten me on tis it would be highly appresiated. Do¿nt you have any laws to protect your and your animals rights? Would a nother person,a neighbour for instance, be allowed to herras you such as described in your comment? I¿m having a hard time believing that a civilized nation,such as yours,would legaly allow this type of abuse.If anyone else who is currently having the same problem is reading this; learn what legal rights one have and demand that they are inforced.As an additional help if this is not met,find out what the abuser is doing that is illegal him/her-self.Report this in the same manor that he/she did.If this person notices this he/she might see that he/she is not a saint either.If the person then want to drop his/her complaints you ,as a nice person,should do the same.--MARK-DO NOT use what information you have gotten your hands on as blackmail for this person to withdraw his/her complaints-- But before any of this sit down and have a calm conversation with this person.Make sure that he/she understands what your problems are and that you are trying very hard to correct them.Also make sure that he/she understands that this process is going to take some time and that you would be very grateful if he/she would respect this. If the trainingprocess would bennefit from it invite this person to be a part of it,politelly ofcourse and remember;NO PREASSURE. YOU should also take great care in listening to what he/she has to say and ask with emphasis on how they FEEL about you and your dogs living there aswel as dogs in general. If this person is not desdurbed it is most likely that he/she is afraid of and/or is prejudistic towards dogs. In this latter case offer to spend some time with him/her and later together with dogs. If a person is afraid of dogs it is likely that he/she would respond with anger and intollerance towards them.The process of changing this will take more effort and time than training your dog,but believe me it is necessary,and you never know once the fear dies away it may be replaced with facinisation and you might end up with a neighbour that gets a dog him-/herself. To respond to the type of behaviour described with kindness,respect and understanding it may change leaving you free of that problem.

Very good suggestion, Zoe. Thanks. Laris

zoe, unfortunately in most communities in the US, the 'rights' of dog owners fall far, far below those of other members of the community. Generally speaking, if one's neighbor accuses your dog of being a barking nuisance, you are issued a summons by your local authorities and must appear in court in order to fight the charges. In that venue, it becomes a situation of your word versus the neighbor's word, and the court almost always finds in favor of the person who made the complaint--and you, the defendant, must pay a fine. Your perception of the US as being a nation of tolerant inviduals who can be reasoned with is, sadly, a misconception. Most of our population is very self-centered, believing that their wants and needs supercede those of others. The notion of "Live and let live" is no longer a motto people embrace, for the most part. In the situation I referred to which led me to have my kennel dogs debarked, I eventually had to file harassment charges against the individual AND the community government in order to put an end to the nonsense. Were it not for the fact that I could prove that it was medically impossible for the dogs to have been barking at a volume that could be hard an acre's distance away, I would not have won my case--I lost an earlier case despite having proof that all the dogs and I were in a different state at the time the barking complaint was phoned in. In a perfect world, surgical debarking would never be necessary. Until such time as that Utopia arrives, however, it is an option that should *not* be viewed as the first course of action, but must remain an option when circumstances dictate it is necessary.

I have a dog that has been de-barked. She's much happier to be around and I tried everything before doing this procedure. She's not a kennel dog and lives in my house with me but her barking would never stop and she's schooled to a Schutzhund II so it's not that she's lacking in bahaviour either. I think the most curel thing that one can do is use a bark collar. I couldn't leave this on her 24/7 but at times I was forced to do so. Her barking would not stop! The bark collar would leave large open sores on her neck that smelled horrible and I imagine was very painful too. My vet finally convinced me to have this procedure performed and really it was not bad for her at all (recovery). She still has a audible bark but the "boom" is gone, she's happy and I'm happy that I don't have to yell at her myself to always be quiet. If I have another dog like her I wouldn't wait to have the procedure done again as this beats the stress for owner and animal and the other alternative of getting rid of or destroying the animal. Melody

DEBARKING A DOG IA CRUEL AND RIDICULOUS. I WOULD LOVE TO DEBARK ANY OWNER THAT WOULD DO THIS. COO COO!

Sometimes a bark collar may be the only way to go. I don't have a kennel full of dogs--just three companion housedogs. I rotate the two males (both SchH3 IPO3) back and forth from the house to the yard several times a day. They sleep in the house (one is crated) at night and do not wear bark collars 24/7. The trouble is that these boys (who are otherwise not dog-aggressive) hate one another intensely and would kill one another if they were to get together. De-barking will not prevent them from posturing and barking through large sliding glass doors, between crates at schutzhund training, or from fence-fighting through chainlink fences (where one has already broken off the tips of a couple upper canine teeth--fortunately, not severe enough to require root canals). Like all dogs, these are basically "pack animals"--both males want to be alpha. Yes, they accept me as alpha during training and they love to work. However, I am neither lazy nor irresponsible--there is simply no way to modify the behavior of dogs with this much fight drive through training and socialization. I have had German Shepherds (and often multiple males) since 1964 and have never experienced this sort of sibling rivalry and aggression. I set the collars at low levels of intensity. The dogs can bark when necessary; however, they quickly learn self-restraint when wearing the collars and are not nuisance barkers.

Someone just sent me a private email about the bark collars that squirt citronella rather than provide an electrical stimulus to deter barking. Anyone have any experience with the citronella collars?? I doubt that they would even phase my boys.