Breeding a Mega Esophagus Carrier - Page 3

Just as this topic was posted on the other forum.....my "personal" answer would still be the same here.
No breeder (in their right mind) would happily breed to or from a dog that is a known, proven producer of genetic problems.
However....having a dog that produced 1 problem, in 1 litter...would be considered removed from a breeding gene pool, along with siblings from prior litters (related) to the two dogs in question is out rageous.
Then you would have to realistically consider....that none of your dogs should be used for breeding stock either, along with their parents or siblings.  I would be sure that there could be found one or more dogs in their pedigrees that have produced a health problem and or genetic fault......

It is absolutely important to remove dogs that are proven to produce health problems.....I totally agree with this...no question. And without hesitation....dogs that produce "multiple defects".
But I do not share in the opinion that one problem, in one breeding should omitt both dogs along with their prior progeny and siblings from a breeding gene pool......especially when those dogs have produced other litters with no known problems.

Although I am not the breeder in question....it really bothers me when I see (breeders) or enthusiasts preach "how great they are & their dogs are"...when I KNOW, their own practices have produced puppies with problems....they just don't say anything.

I may not always say what people want to hear....but I always say what I find truthful.
JMO...nothing more. *Won't make me popular for sure.*

@ Rik......I have never heard of a litter of puppies with that many MEga E pups......in that case, I too would have removed the bitch.....as a breeder, not worth the chance of another litter like such. That is/was a high content for any litter.

....it really bothers me when I see (breeders) or enthusiasts preach "how great they are & their dogs are"...

That made me chuckle. There does seem to be a few who manage to pat themselves on the back in almost every thread or subject.

jag, I had decided not to reply to your question, what if it is only one. There is such a wide variety of folks here, many with really no experience but always opinions and others very close to PETA leanings that it is best to stay away from controversy.

This was a 3'rd generation breeding of dogs I owned/produced. The grandam an AKC champion, healthy and long lived, bred 5 times (7,7,3,9,8). No mega-e in any litter. The dam was from one of these breedings and I also kept a litter sister, who produced one litter and also no clinical signs of mega-e.

This won't be the politically correct PDB answer, but in all honesty, if it had only been one puppy with mega-e, instead of the catastrophic event it was, I cannot say I would not have bred her again.

Rik

"That made me chuckle. There does seem to be a few who manage to pat themselves on the back in almost every thread or subject."

HA!  Me too.  They must have a litter on the ground again to sell!
 

"I may not always say what people want to hear....but I always say what I find truthful.
JMO...nothing more. *Won't make me popular for sure.*"


It will make you very popular with those of us that are  quite satisfied with the truth!
Good post. :)

 

 

1 puppy with Mega E in a litter that consisted of 2 puppies total?
Well, I'd say obviously no breeding for either of those 2 pups.

Look at the parents, if there is no previous production problems
for either, and they are simply outstanding in SO many ways,
(and this is not judged by kennel blind owners, this means dogs that
have achieved something outside of the backyard), then breeding to
different partners and keeping track of what comes from that is not
unreasonable. But that takes ethical breeding practices, not many have
those. Rik summed it up nicely when he said-

What I did, after producing a litter of 7 pups, 6 with mega-e was to never breed the female again. It's just not worth it if you have goals past selling pups.

If they are 'average' dogs, no health clearances, 
no titles of any sort etc, well, they should not have 
been bred in the first place 

I think (and I probably don't really have a right to an opinion, seeing as I've never been in the position, and of course everyone not involved in a situation has all the answers and all that... but...) that with something as serious and debilitating as mega-e, more severe culling practices are in order...more along the lines of what Rik said. If it is something like an occasional missing tooth or even a bad set of joints here and there, then yes, pay attention to pairings, but don't get too crazy if a very low percentage are producing issues. Mega-e just seems so devastating that, to me, it wouldn't be worth the risk to breed the dog again. However, I'm not a professional breeder, don't strive to be one, and therefore have a different opinion, I'm sure, as my goals are different. It's just not that big of a deal to me whether I breed or not, so actually the easier answer to me would be not to chance it. I can't say that everyone should feel the same way, however, for the reasons I have already stated. 

In the example in Lani's link, I think that situation (which is the one I was commenting on all along) is definitely one where I would err on the side of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". 

Mega E is often paired with a persistent right aortic arch; that should add another caution to the mix.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/11104.htm

Over the years I've come to know several breeders who patted themselves on the back for "no health problems ever" while their buyers told a different story.


 

Blitzen is very correct. Most Mega-E pups are also
cursed with PRAA. The outcome for them is not always
so fabulous. Surgery (if the pup is a candidate) is very
expensive. Then, you gamble on whether or not the pup
will survive the surgery. Mega-E is usually pretty easily
caught as soon as  the puppy is transitioned from 'mush'
to 'hard food',  pretty much classic symptoms: puppy will
appear relatively normal, puppy will eat heartily, then very
shortly after, pukes up everything. The puppy will start to
lose weight, and while littermates grow and thrive, that
puppy will seemingly shrink and wither. It can sometimes
take a few feedings for someone to catch too, this is because
once you set the pan down and walk away for a second, they
all scarf food down, then, as soon as the ME pup pukes, the 
others will scarf that down too. So, if you blink, sometimes
you miss it.

After being forwarded a link to another 'version' of 
this thread on another board, in this particular case,
I don't believe either dog should be bred again. 

Although this particular case has more details on another
board, speaking 'generically', if one pairing produced
one pup with ME, and everything else was completely and
utterly STELLAR about these two dogs,  and they had
never produced ME before, I would not see a problem with
doing another breeding with them, to different dogs.
BUT, those subsequent litters should be monitiored, and
buyers should be in the 'know'. But that goes without saying
for any health issue a male or female may have produced in
other litters. 

I can't say as though we have ever come across anyone that
had a dog come up with ME later in life. It's was always caught
right when the pup was in the weaning process?
I believe a recent 'public' example would be the unregisterd litter
fawndallas had, she had a ME puppy in her litter.

I guess I just don't understand what the debate is all about. Why would anyone chance it happening more than once?   It's not something that like a missing tooth that can be dealt with and moved on from in a way that affords the dog a wonderful quality of life, so if not for selfish human reasons, or sheer negligence, why would anyone breed a Mega-e affected/carrier dog? 

Regardless of what a breeder or buyer says, the truth always comes out eventually. Dogs don't lie. 

The problem is, how do you pinpoint which dog it
came from? It may only crop up once and never 
again. If the dog produced it again, then yes, eliminate,
but again, the dogs in question would have to be really
STELLAR dogs to even justify another chance. Here is
another problem, most everyone thinks their dogs are
STELLAR and without fault.

If one had an entire litter affected, yes, do what Rik did,
end the breeding careers. What happens if it is ME that
occurs later in the dogs life? How do you make a retroactive
judgement call then? You can't. Sometimes these things pop
up seemingly out of nowhere. And then they are never seen
again.
 
Do you just not breed 'in case', obviously thats not a solution.
It takes responsible and honest ethical breeding.
That means transparency and cold hard judgement calls.
Not decisions based on income from sales.

Why would someone chance it?
Probably the same reason a breeder would use
a dog with bad hips/elbows etc. Because they choose to.

Same reason they would breed untested/unregistered
dogs etc. Because they choose to.

This is a very real problem many of these breeders that do
'quickie' breedings get bit in the ass too. They breed bitches
back to back to back to back with no break, and by the time
they face reality that perhaps their bitch is producing nerve
issues, bad joints, dental issues or other serious health maladies,
they have 20+ puppies out there from just one bitch.

Who pays the biggest price? The puppies and the owners of
those puppies. 

It all comes back to ethics, morals and experience,
or a big lack there of.

In the case of the OP, I would not breed those two dogs
ever again, there is simply nothing stellar about either dog.

A PRAA is a no brainer - the dog gets corrective surgery or odds are it's going to expire before very long. Some puppies with Mega E alone can survive and live a relatively normal life. I remember a few puppies seen at the clinic where I worked that didn't need to be PTS. They were fed mushy food from an elevated dish and kept quiet  for about an hour after eating.  Some even "outgrew" the problem. Every dog I remember with PRAA and/or MegaE was a GSD.

I'm not sure what I would do if my bitch produced either or both. I guess it would depend on if the pup also had a PRAA,  the number of effected pups in that litter, and the history of the lines. I know I wouldn't repeat the breeding, but I might consider breeding her in a different direction if there were only one effected pup and if PRAA were not involved.  I'd also want to know if there is an established mode of inheritance. The problem with all the outcrossing that routinely goes on in this breed is that it makes it more difficult to pinpoint where some of these health issues come from.

Not using dogs that can't pass their hip or elbow xrays and/or that haven't demonstrated their breed worthiness by earning some sort of performance title would be an easy decision for me, I just wouldn't do it. Mega E, well, it depends.........