Help with puppy selection - Page 2

Blitzen you may be right. I could not find any info where GSD's are used as Livestock guardians. The attached article is very informative. At this point if I would advise my buyer that a GSD is likley not the best choice for a livestock protection dog. http://www.agr.gov.sk.ca/docs/production/Guardiandogs03.pdf

That's why AKC created the herding group years ago and put the GSD there with other herding breeds - shelties, corgis, collies, etc.. I was showing in the working group at that time and there was quite a controversy regarding where the GSD rightfully belonged. Some thought working due to their protection/police/service work while others thought herding. Herding won out since the GSD was originally intended as a herding breed; Schutzund, etc came later. The breed origin usually wins out even in breeds like this one that are versatile and can do many different jobs well. Note that there are no solid white herding dogs either. I would never say that a GSD could not be taught guard a flock anymore than I'd say that a GSD could not learn to go to ground for vermin or successfully compete in lure coursing. There are always exceptions in a breed as versatile as this one. I just think that anyone sellling a GSD as a livestock guarder may well end up with a dissatified customer unless that person is experienced with training GSD's to guard.

OK GSDLVR2 you started this so I hope you chime back in..... I do think that choosing a dog that has been bred for a specific purpose for decades should be the first thing you look at BUT what have these Guardian Dogs been bred for in the US? The show ring. So unless you find a breeder who is producing dogs for their original purpose, or buy a dog from Europe from stock that is actively performing this task, I think it will be hard to find the right dog. I will assume this person wants a GSD, does not want to import a dog from Europe, and wants it to be a pet to some extent. I do not see why a GSD could not fullfill this task. In fact, I think it would be one of the first choices. DesertRanger that was an awesome. I am glad you posted it because I learned something. It made me "think outside the box". I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I suggested an independant confident pup, that carries aggression. Which as I read this article is what they are saying. I didn't include the pack drive. I would also go big. Thinking from a training perspective, with the bonding period, I would wean the puppy @ 4 weeks and give the owner the pup @ 5 weeks. The owner can than follow the bonding instructions of the article. Properly introduce the e-collar. When the dog begins to reach maturity I would trap some foxes and coyotes. Release the preditory animals, allow the dog to chase them off, and use the e-collar to return the dog to the flock when the threat is gone. If someone did this why wouldn't a GSD be able to do this job quite well? Think outside the box.

Hi everyone and thank you for your input. Certainly I will have to question this potential buyer more thoroughly when we have an appointment. It's possible he means he wants a GSD to tend vs. guard. His flock is most likely fenced in with the occasional predator coming by. These are all things I will find out before I sell him a puppy. If I don't feel it's a good fit he won't get one from me. He also wants it to protect his property and family. If these were large flocks in the mountains grazing among wolves then I would say another breed Pyrenese ,would be better. I also believe "it's a GSD and can do anything" still I am conscious of the correct dog for the job. One of mine has no particular training in guarding my little flock, but at certain times of year the mother foxes come around and somehow get through a double wire fence with an electric trip wire on the outside. When they do and they come to hunt inside my fence, I leave my GSD out there and he takes care of business. It's just built into him. He is a house dog the rest of the time.

In most states it's illegal to tranfer a puppy under 8 weeks of age. An experienced dog trainer such as yourself, Real Dog, could probably train a GSD to guard a flock, but I doubt that your average dog buyer would have those skills. A breed with a natural guarding instinct might be a better choice. There are breeders in the US who breed only for working dogs that guard flocks, not all show their dogs.

gsdlvr2-- Why don't you email Winnie or Chey (same person). She seems to have a pretty good handle on what to look for--but, then again, do you really want to sell one of your pups to guard a flock? I'm sure the GSD is capable, but it seems like an extremely lonely for the dog. I believe guard dogs usually live full-time with the flock in order to create an enormous bond that will significantly enhance the desire to protect. Herding and moving the flock--working alongside human companionship--seems a somewhat preferrable future for the dog (at least to me). DC--Why don't you get off Alphapup's case already. You're too new to make so many "already old" comments. You don't like his or her descriptions--then just bite the bullet, and take comfort that there are enough "by-the-book" people around here to support you. (Don't forget this is a GSD site, not just a GDS schutzhund site---some of us non-schutzhund people, (who, by the way, do understand what DRIVES are), like to SEE MORE). You'll just have to give us some time to get better educated to your way of thinking and become more close-minded. LOL (Did I really type that? Sounds so phoney.)

I agree the GSD could possibly be a good livestock dog. I just would not sell my pup as one until I had some expereince and knew what I was doing. Some livestock are worth alot of money. My brother in law uses Great Pynreese for several reasons. One is that they are large enough to attack and run off most other dogs as wild/stray dogs were his biggest threat. They are not roamers or explorers and tend to stay close to the livestock.

gsdlv2, that sounds like a sensible approach and LMH's suggestions make a lot of sense to me too. Living as a fulltime guard dog would be a lonely life for a GSD while a breed like the pyrenees is content to be with the sheep 24/7. Your dog gets to come back inside with his family after he dispatches the foxes and I'm sure he's much happier that way than he'd be living in the corral with your sheep.

I don't know a lot about using GSD's to herd, but this man certainly does: http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-home.htm He also breeds GSD's specifically for herding. The herding instinct is definintely alive and well in the North American German Shepherd. The show dog, Dallas had a strong herding instinct, and some of his descendants and (I think) a full sister of his have titled in herding. So much for those who say the show lines are only good for prancing around the ring... ;-)

LMH I think you took that the wrong way. I was merely defending the non-schutzhund people who are vague in their descriptions. Im not trying to go to the mattresses with ALPOPUP, I just didnt't think what he was doing was fair, while doing it himself. I apologize to all! I will wait quite a while before truly letting you know what I feel. It's like I always said, "never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking." Sincerely, D.C.