Just Curious, Where the ASL people at - Page 14

For some people, only the prospect of competing and succeeding at TOP level seems to make a dog 'breedworthy'; it does not matter, so it seems, that any GSD is even worth the name unless it can score at least '100/80/90', AND be trained to bite the f*** out of a mugger.

So (whatever the 'type'), a natural affinity with picking up all sorts of objects, or finding dead bodies under rubble, or being gentle enough to comfort someone in a hospital bed, or ...
simply wouldn't cut it. We are all wasting our time.

BE...an IPO1 is easy you say...huh...very interesting...if it's so easy...nah, too easy, I'll let that one go.

Decent human being = don't say anything bad about anyone and blow smoke up everyone's you know what so that we all stay buddies and recommend each other to others for puppies and everyone makes money and everyone is happy. Doesn't matter what it's doing to the breed. The "knowledgeable" mediocrity will just all keep recommending each other, not being objective, and we'll get to...well, we're already there. Chasing the mighty dollar with a cloud of "I care about the breed" around it to make it look like you're doing something special to the puppy buyers that don't know up from down.

Anyone that stands up and questions what's happening...gets the same basic treatment I'm getting now. BAND TOGETHER AND DEFEND THE STATUS QUO!!! WE NEED TO SELL PUPPIES! If we tell all the unknowing puppy buyers that we're all great because we do OFA and our dog runs in a circle, then we'll all be great and make sales... Attack those that question it and point out the deficiencies!!!

You're right though...cuddling in bed is the new breed test.

My opinions, at least, (Deleted comment personal attack Western Rider)  are NOT predicated on the sale of puppies. I am not breeding any puppies; I am not speaking up for anyone who is selling puppies. Never have been.

If however I was going to breed, I hope I would be far more open-minded than you about the differences between individual dogs' capabilities, and usefulness, and just what "working talents" are a part of GSD make-up, than you ever are.

Uneducated…$5 says I have a higher degree than you. If we’re talking about GSD breed…I’ve probably seen more dogs, had my hands on more dogs, understand more about the GSD, than you do even though you’ve probably got at least 4 decades on me. But it’s okay…anyone “educated” knows exactly what it means in an argument when one side goes with name-calling, they’ve just run out of actual points to make and need to cry wolf.

You also have ZERO idea what I breed, what I work, or what my dogs are like. You’ve got an idea of what I might be based on an online persona. A persona which is easily faked, easily manipulated, and easily used to press buttons of those that are unable to remove emotion from the “dog world.” Once you learn how to do that…you’ll be able to learn a lot more. At the moment, you focus way too much on WHO the information is coming from rather than WHAT it is. But that’s what most people do. Their buddy says something, they’re always right. Someone they don’t like says something, they’re wrong no matter what.

Until you figure out a way to be part of the solution, you’re part of the problem…but your issue is that you actually refuse to admit there is a problem within the breed in the first place. Until you accept that, nothing you say or do really matters. Makes sense though that you like gathering your information from books rather than the real world...you can just sit back and accept the single opinion given in the book, no one is there to confuse you or ruin your perfect little world that you're reading about. Differing opinions are scary to some people...especially when they're against what their masters have taught them. Can't ever question those masters...they're right 100% of the time.

Hundmutter: " So (whatever the 'type'), a natural affinity with picking up all sorts of objects, or finding dead bodies under rubble, or being gentle enough to comfort someone in a hospital bed, or ...
simply wouldn't cut it. We are all wasting our time. "

 

Nobody is wasting time in case of spending useful time with a dog, but you need to differ between a "good dog" and a "breedworthy dog" in case of the breed standard.

For example: A dog "being gentle enough to comfort someone in a hospital bed" may be a good dog - but a gentle dog able to do the IPO routine without problems may be a breedworthy dog.

You can´t base the breed worthiness of a working dog breed on "gentle"...

 

I'm not, Susie. I am just trying to illustrate that the range of skills and aptitudes in the basic good specimen of GSD is not ENTIRELY centred on the production of 'podium dogs'. There is lots of room for a dog which is less than stellar at IPO - not one who is INCAPABLE OF DOING SOME IPO TRAINING - to possess or develop other talents, and thus fulfil the role of a "working" dog.  You have said as much yourself at times.  It just seems to be something that does not penetrate BE's skull.

If one has a dog that is, say, good at Obedience and Bitework but always falls down on Tracking, do you write him/her off as "unbreedworthy" even where in another bit of its life, eg SAR, Herding, the same dog already excels ?  Isn't the insistence on Shutzhund success one of the main reasons GSDs are no longer in such demand as Guide Dogs ?

We need to be careful that we do not exclude too many dogs because they don't fit BW's narrow view - 'cos you can bet the real money-mad maverick producers will step in to meet demand ! You know, those who may not be actually 'puppy farmers' but see a market for really soft temperaments, fancy colours and ultra- long coats, for the pet trade.  Often without health tests, let alone doing any form of training to give their puppies potential as having a useful job.

Now we are touching a mine field...

"If one has a dog that is, say, good at Obedience and Bitework but always falls down on Tracking, do you write him/her off as "unbreedworthy" even where in another bit of its life, eg SAR, Herding, the same dog already excels ?  Isn't the insistence on Shutzhund success one of the main reasons GSDs are no longer in such demand as Guide Dogs ?"

To answer your questions:

"Falls down on tracking" in case of an IPO dog = unbreedworthy ( may it be the dogs fault, may it be the handler´s fault, I don´t care, enough titled dogs out there )

SAR in case of the European SAR rules/title ( RH2 ) = combined with a breed survey ( some bitework ), no problem

Herding in case of the German herding title HGH = combined with a breed survey no problem

The main problem is, that people "train" their dogs in some venue, but in reality they only scratch the surface of that training - it´s no problem to "train", but it´s a problem to title...

 

Hey Hundy...go ahead and quote anything that would tell you what my view of a GSD should be? Let's have at it. Let's not just base it on what you ASSUME is my view of a GSD, but lets actually see the wording. Come on...it's on the internet, you can find it.

You're right...don't worry about IPO...breed those obedience stars and hospital dogs. Let me know how that works out for you in the long run. Oh wait...just take a look at your country's ability to produce a working dog as a whole and you'll know the answer to that. Now...feel free to go crying about how I'm railing on England. But guess what, you can take a look at the United States in the same way. AKC has made SHOW RING the focus for over 100 years now and barely recognizes their own obedience titling program and look at what the GSD has become in the United States as well.

Stop worrying about who's delivering the message, and look at the message itself. Keep thinking that the obedience title your dog gets proves they're breedworthy and then take a look at the breeding programs in your country. Then take a look at the overall breed quality in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and compare. It's hard for you to admit...but all of my IPO titled dogs can go into an obedience ring and wipe the floor with the dogs that are in there. Guess what the dogs that just do AKC or KC obedience can't do? Breed too long based on a few obedience titles...or rally which is quickly becoming some sort of high level accomplishment here in the United States...and you'll see how quickly any real working ability and nerve goes away. But you're right...I don't know anything and have way too limited of a view of what the breed should be. Or maybe you should gather some understanding of what NERVE STRENGTH is and how it relates to the types of tasks a GSD could be asked to perform. Maybe you should actually get out and meet some IPO dogs instead of reading about them and see that the majority of them could walk into any hospital and lay in any bed. But nah...you're too busy reading articles and books that back up your own skewed/twisted opinion of a dog that you can't even begin to understand.

 

Someone that's never trained a day of bitework or tracking in their life should really stop commenting on it. Someone who's never trained a day in IPO should also probably stop commenting on it. Stick with the circles and CDs, at least you have some real knowledge about those venues.

But BW shouts down any mention of Herding or SAR, Susie ...or any opinion about the fact that not all dogs can be absolute winners.

And why does it not surprise me, BW, that you fail to see that YOU start the insults flying, when you insist that noone is entitled to any other point of view on these issues, that you are right and that anyone who thinks differently MUST ALL BE MONEY GRABBING BREEDERS of the worst (ie uncaring about the breed) sort, lying to ourselves and to buyers. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DRAW SUCH CONCLUSIONS ABOUT PEOPLE YOU DO NOT KNOW, ANY BETTER THAN WE - as you point out - CAN KNOW YOU ! But you never tone it down, do you ?

At least credit me with warning you, politely enough, through Private Messaging, weeks ago, that your approach was going to be resented as completely arrogant. But you preferred not to listen, or be guided by that, right ? Now you don't like it when others turn your 'medicine' on you, and scream unfair.

Please find and quote where I was the first one to insult someone on this thread.

Also...see above where I asked you to find where I have ever written out my ideas of what a GSD should be. If you're going to make claims about things I'VE SAID...you should be able to back those claims up. It's very easy to do since they're available for you to look up.