A.W.D.F. - Page 14

Blush! Well, 40 years and over 70 titles later (multiple HIT in AKC obed, SchH, FH, weight pull, AKC tracking,etc hardly makes me a newbie.  And I have only used the collar when being coached by an "expert".  Like I said, I can count on one hand the numbver of times I've used it over the past 40 years, and what I ment was that in retrospect I know now I did not need to use it, I just hurried.  

I know you aren't a newbie, I wasn't trying to imply that you were, the thing is though, what you said is exactly why many trainers don't want newbies to get ahold of ecollars, they have bad timing, fry their dogs, and they especially think it is a cool gimmick for a quick fix/shortcut.   Truly, in all the clubs I have been affiliated with I have seen a lot of newbies who are almost drooling with anticipation wanting to use ecollars,  and a lot old timers (who use ecollars themselves)  telling those types they aren't ready or their dogs don't need them, but I am sure you have seen those types too, the ones that can never be told anything, the ones that have to learn it for themselves!!  They go off on their own & screw up their dogs, then come back with their tails tucked, or worse yet, try to deny it!

"Heck, I've used one a half dozen times when I was in a hurry to fix a problem and didn't have time to do it correctly (or I got lazy.)"

Oh, boy.

Well, if that's the case, then please do not ever, ever, ever confuse those who use e-collars properly with YOURSELF, who uses them totally incorrectly.  Seems to me you think that those "at the top" use them the way you do? 

NoCurs, I could care less what you believe or what your training philosophy may be. I just don't understand your tone. And after 40 years and 70 titles, I would think you've seen a trainer use an e-collar properly. I have never used one, but I'm not going to sit at my computer looking down on those that do. I think it is great that Shade does as well as she does without an e-collar. But hey, you couldn't just let everyone congratulate Shade and rave about her dog. You had an agenda.

First of all, congratulations on Shade and her dog for such a good competition. I applud your trainingphilosophy and it obviously works great for you and your dog. You go girl and I wish you all the best and all the success in the future. Now...

I don't use an e-collar on my current dog (but I have used to before and the results were within the expected parameters back then). My current dog didn't need it so far, in my estimate, I have used a choke collar on him and I have used a prong on him.

It doesn't mean I will use e-collar later on and it doesn't mean I won't. It is solely up to me if I decide it is something he will need.

However, I have seen it used countless times in the last 5 years by people that know how to use it and they and their dogs have competed on national and world level. Not once did they "fry" their dog, but they used it correctly the way it was intended to use.

E-collar is very dangerous tool in inexperienced hands and I will leave it at that.

Back to AWDF discussion now.

I honestly admit (and thought I was clear) that  I do have an agenda...  

I'd like to see more people train their dogs using less pain.

I really love dogs; I've never understood how "beating up your dog" on the weekend could be a fun sport. No, not EVERYONE who uses electric is a boogey man, obviously. Not even me, I'm just HONEST about my use of the tool. I've used it when I didn't take the time to show the dog in a better way.  But I was taught positive training by a marine mammal trainer, so  I may have a different view than most dog trainers. And, of course,  I'm aware that NO one else is EVERY unfair with the collar, or uses anything other than a "tickle"!   ; )  Especially those who jump on those who don't use it.  

Now, I only live in the PNW, so maybe in the rest of the USA things are different?  But around here if you show up at a schutzhund club chances are pretty darn high you'll see electric shock, prong collars sharpened to points and people telling the dog what he CANT do rather than showing him what he CAN do.  Stressed dogs. If you don't think this is rather common in schutzhund than I honestly believe you are kidding yourself.  I wish it could improve. Do you?

In my little corner of the world I could tell you about competitors that have hung dogs to death. Competitors (national level) and "respected seminar giver" and national club official who litterally drove dogs mad with pain and pressure until the dogs turned on their owners. And on and on; really ugly stuff.  I only bring this up because yes, I have an agenda: I want more positive methods to prevail before PETA and the like step in and clean up our sport for us.  It could very well happen. 

I apologize to Shade for putting her on the spot. She has enough pressure on her already. But I am very, very happy to see that there is someone out there who might, by her efforts, get a few  people thinking about what will happen if PETA turns their attention on our sport.  That is my agenda. 

OK, sorry to hijack thread, not my intention. I'll leave now so it won't become a "shock collar" thread or cause ill will towards a very talented woman and her dog who did well at the nationals.  

But you don't want to turn this into a pro-con ecollar thread...uh huh.

"I really love dogs; I've never understood how "beating up your dog" on the weekend could be a fun sport. No, not EVERYONE who uses electric is a boogey man, obviously. Not even me, I'm just HONEST about my use of the tool. I've used it when I didn't take the time to show the dog in a better way. But I was taught positive training by a marine mammal trainer, so I may have a different view than most dog trainers. And, of course, I'm aware that NO one else is EVERY unfair with the collar, or uses anything other than a "tickle"! ; ) Especially those who jump on those who don't use it."

What a horrible paragraph. 

Tell me, who is it who thinks that beating up your dog is a fun sport?  C'mon.  Who?

You're the one mis-using the e-collar.  You're the one beating up your dog because, as you admit, you are 1) in a hurry, and 2) LAZY.  So you must be talking about yourself.

And you think you're the only one out there who "really loves dogs"?  Who was taught "positive training"?  Who "has a different view than most dog trainers'?  And then you, the self-proclaimed "in a hurry" and "lazy" trainer, make snide remarks implying that those who jump on you are frying their dogs.

My background, too, is AKC show and obedience, and coming from that background, like you I don't use an e-collar much at all.  My dog is pretty much the only one in training without one on, although I have one and I have gotten him used to it in the same way the recent USA magazine article described.  Yes, I've seen people fry dogs, and you and I probably  basically agree on e-collar use and misuse.  I appreciate your honesty in how you yourself use it, but you sure seem to have made the jump that therefore the rest of the people using it are beating up their dogs.

For those of  you talking about the vests being sold at the AWDF, these are new to the market and different from what you previously saw.  Different style toy pocket, different fabrics, different design.  Also, since I make them all individually, they can be cutom fit to any size.  Just wanted to clarify any misunderstandings.

Congratulations Shade
Bob it was great meeting you.

Kate Kueper