They are all the same breed - Page 12

Sue, this came up before on the PDB. Someone who knew greyhounds said the racing hounds were flat-backed, while the showline dogs were roached.  Hmmm...so, what does that tell you about the purpose of the roach?

Whippets - "The backline runs smooth from the withers with a graceful arch, not too accentuated, beginning over the loin and carrying through over the croup; the arch is continuous without flair. A dip behind the shoulder blades, wheelback or a steep ot flat croup should be pnealized."

Greyhound - "Back, muscular and broad"

                   "Loins, good depth of muscle, well arched, well cut up in the flanks"

Afghan- "Body, the backline appearing practically level from the shoulder to the loin. Strong and powerful loin and slightly arched, falling away toward the stern, with the hip bones very well pronounce........"

Saluki - "Loin and back, back fairly broad, muscles slightly arched over the loin"

The sighthounds do want a slight arch beginning in the loin area never just behind the withers as seen in some GSD's.

Dawgs, the Rin Tin Tin line has changed in appearance, as you first noted when you looked at its history. Keeping it looking like the dogs of the 1920's was just an impossible task when all the other dogs out there began changing. The current dogs may not meet the criteria to win in either the German or American show ring, but they aren't useless, and they aren't cripples. The most recent Rin Tin Tin is still a puppy, and they show his training on one of the site pages: weave poles, catwalk, going down a slide, etc. and TONS of socialization. Looks like he's turning into a nice grey sable, like the original RInty, too.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this latest outcross. I like his looks: he's not extreme in any way, and has a nice, solid build unlike a lot of current American GSD's.

Yellowrose, you're asking about the origins of the King Shepherd? Back in the 60's, Tina Barber began to raise her own strain of GSD's, and called them Shilohs (her kennel name). She was breeding to improve size, nerves, and hips/elbows. The lady who founded the King shepherd breed jumped on the bandwagon, and, having purchased some of Tina's dogs, began crossing them with GSD's and calling THEM Shilohs. By this time, Tina had split with the AKC, and outcrossed her dogs to other breeds, infusing just enough new blood to keep the dogs from getting too inbred. These new crosses with the GSD did not have Tina's approval, as breed founder and breed warden, so she told the lady she couldn't use her breed name for the dogs. Soooo...the King Shepherd was born.

The latest wrinkle on this? A lot of the German showlines are oversized. Recently, the SV has started to get stricter about enforcing the standard re. size. The oversized dogs are now being sold in N. America as "King Shepherds"!  No kidding...I met one in the park the other day!  

An excellent thread and input from everyone.  I have a question, personally motivated, for everyone here and I appreciate any and all responses and please be honest with me.

I am posting a pic of my working line boy and girl and want honest conformation opinions taking into consideration that I am not good yet at stacking (need a few more hands involved).

I have been following the advice of many of you here and working towards becoming an honorable and ethical breeder, working my dogs in Sch to get their titles, health certifications, etc. 

My very first visit to a training session was very negative as the minute (literally) that I walked up with my boy, a showline breeder said "He'll never conform" - literally the first words out of his mouth and not even a "hello, I'm so-n-so" or anything.  I would like to say that the experience got better but it didn't.  I have continued training but have found somewhere better to do so and am looking forward to entering a trial and getting his BH and Sch I in 2008......excited .! 

They both have everything you all promote in working lines, balanced drives, food & ball crazy, strength and agility, good temperments and rock solid nerves.  The same person also stated that they were lucky if they got one good prospect out of a litter.....???  I was shocked at that statement as they had been doing this for 20 years.  I have had one litter and out of 8 pups, 6 are placed in work/sport and excelling very well.  So am I not normal?  My vision for my program is to raise healthy, stable, solid working dogs that will be considered top quality in all ways.  I never have done things half way and have always put 100+% into every endeavor. 

I, as I am sure many of you did, have learned alot in the first few years of raising this breed and the learning curve hit a few bumps here and there, but that's what makes this board all the more important to people like me.  I wish that many of the "wise" old timers many of you say have left would come back.  I know they don't know newbies like me, but we do need them, especially when we want to "do it right" and learn.  And this is the way of life, many of us newbies are here because some of you oldies sold us pups....think about it....LOL

The politics, ethics, breed specific issues along with the very apparent split between the lines and I know I am in the Working Line camp to stay.  My preference have become very clear and mostly because I want solid hips and SL hips just don't look sound to me.  I want dogs of longevity and superior health, versitile in work and very stable temperments.  These are my goals -

But....conformation ....do I sacrifice sound rear ends to conform these dogs?  Or will they pass conformation?  All 4 of the parents are KKL1 so shouldn't I have good expectations that they will Koer well?

I respectfully request all of your honest opinions.

Pics in next window.....

My girl Chloe ( you have seen her pics before - sorry I'm so gaga over my kids)

Best I have so far, he has nice stack stances, I just haven't caught one in a photo yet.  I definately need some extra hands getting a him in a stance (getting him in it is easy, keeping him there isn't - he's so full of energy and the tail never stops)

Jeff, why do you think you are the only person on this board with a worthwhile opinion? How about giving those you consider your underlings a break from your hateful comments and foul language.

Sunsilver:  On the back issue, would you agree there are less of what you call "banana backs" being put up today and also, don't you think the stack can make a dog look more extreme in the same way when american show lines are stacked with the one forward leg having the hock nearly on the ground it makes the angulation look more extreme than what it is?

Sue, that's somewhat true, but if a dog has moderate angulation,  and isn't loose-ligamented, it is very hard to get them to put their hock on the ground. However, with the curved back...think for a minute. You've got a dog with a back shaped more or less like the letter 'C' turned 90 degrees clockwise. If you stretch the dog out in a stack, you're going to flatten that out a bit, right?

As for the banana backs, I haven't been around the German dogs long enough to say for sure, but I think there is a trend away from them. Maybe someone else who has could comment on this?

I will look for some examples, but I know I've seen some that look curved in the stack, but in pictures of the same dogs gaiting or standing naturally the back is straight.