Preferred Model of Aggression and why? - Page 3

That´s the main problem -
1. The GSD is a working dog breed
2. A lot of "modern" people don´t know how to handle this kind of dog
3. Breeders want to sell dogs and start to breed GSDs that don´t have the mentality of a GSD any more

What is better?

1. To "change" the character of a breed so the breed will stay/become "fancy"
or
2. to breed less dogs, but according to the original breed standard?

I believe in no 2, I´d like to obtain the "initial" GSD, even in case this means the breed will become rare sooner or later.

What do you think?

I think we have strayed away from the " raison d'etre " of thread. The reason was which type of aggression do you prefer to see in a dog ( defensive / low social/ but strong ) or possession based that is generally social except when an attempt is made to repossess the prey.

Doesn't matter where the aggression comes from as long as the dog is confident in that aggression. The second type of aggression you speak about is usually safer and more of a guarantee of the dog being confident in that state. The first kind is rarer to find and therefore more of a risk to base a puppy buying decision on. An older dog? If the dog's aggression is definitely true defense but it's strong in it...I'd take it as long as the drive was there to work in obedience. But if someone was breeding two dogs that are defensively aggressive, I wouldn't buy into that 8 week old pup.

Susie...I'm with you on #2...don't make it a breed for the masses and educate people. Unfortunately those breeding for "everyone" are too many and don't care enough.

 Very informative and clear post by BW ( an aesthetic match between the observation and the explanation provided ).

BW would venture to name a couple dogs in either category? Since you have remained anonymous thus far, no one would know who catergoized their dog in whatever manner.

I think BE also metioned about some breeder Stateside that is selling dogs to LE and the level of posession in the dogs are scary. BE are you talking about Loganhaus from WV?

Gustav, I wasn't talking abut one individual, or any useless owner; but (over a lifetime) about at least three people who've worked multiple dogs in competition, had had dogs in the past that tracked well, had A dog each which didn't, then went on to own other dogs later that did Track properly. I am also talking about my own failings as an (attempted) 'teacher' of tracking to one of my own dogs, which I fully admit I did not put enough time and energy into and which was distinctly unsuccessful - but I do not consider myself an inexperienced or ineffective or abusive owner... Suggest you take a look at the current discussion / evaluation of tracking as an element of training on the other thred "Just another Sport Dog-page19", if you want to see notes as to how dogs can be considered to fail to "track properly".

Hundmutter, we have disconnect, I probably wasn't clear in my objection to eliminating dogs that show teeth to people other than those that feed them; and have just cause......let's move on.

Here's a dog that probably fits more into #1 although he definitely has plenty of prey and will work in prey when asked. He will comfortably work in defensive aggression as well with very hard and calm grips when a bite is asked for.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=720640-gordon-vom-kellnerhof

A dog that is more #2 is

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2464011-dexter-vom-eisernen-kreuz

Both are excellent dogs and extremely confident and overpowering in their aggression.

Here's how I see it: if one breeds for the first type of dog in susie's proposition, you'll still get dogs that fit profile #2 occasionally, but not often enough to keep the traits easily accessible.

If you breed in keeping with profile #2, you'll still only get dogs that are the ideal of that profile occasionally, but there incidence will be more frequent, while the ones that aren't ideal will still be more than capable of fulfilling the wide swath of roles we need them for.

Neither of these is going to happen, however, because in the US anyone can breed anything they want, and there's always going to be enough Europeans who will be quite happy to continue to supply dogs to US buyers.

Hexe, no european can pressure anybody to buy anything, its allways DEMAND first and braggingrights are in high demand

There is absolutely NO reason there cant be strong dogs produced in the USA and Im sure there are good dogs produced overthere as we speak

 

When I started to breed non titled dogs from classic czech lines in holland everybody said no good, fail etc, till my dogs started to go to police, worked well on IPO field, KNPV field,  and PP etc 

now that Im out of holland for 6 plus years I still have demand from holland and still sell pups from my breeding there

Still only breed about two litters per year, so certain people dont have to worry about me trying to make a sale here.

 

Same goes for breeders in USA, sure you can stay safe and breed latest BSP or WUSV podiumdog and sell your pups, but Im sure and know off several breeders producing strong dogs overthere, that can easily sell their dogs without depending on the names on their  papers 

duke, I think you misunderstood--I wasn't suggesting the Euro breeders pressure the US buyers into accepting sub-standard dogs.

My point was that as long as the US [and other countries, I'm sure] is willing to buy dogs that don't meet the breed standard as far as temperament and working ability are concerned, there's always going to be incentive for European breeders to produce that type of dog. No reason to create a supply of something that there's no demand for, after all.