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by susie on 01 February 2014 - 00:02
by clc29 on 01 February 2014 - 01:02
Wow......Thank you Susie.
That's extremely helpful. Being a visual person I love this kind of information.
That's extremely helpful. Being a visual person I love this kind of information.
by mentayflor on 11 February 2014 - 03:02
Thanks Susie! I wonder if this is applicable to working lines. I could see (on videos) a some dogs who appear to be taller than 65 cm and with big head. And a lot of them even have a wider nose. I suspect that the punctuation for working dog does not take into account the measures as much as show lines. Am I right? I am not specialist at all. I just use to read the topics at this forum and watch videos and photos.
by Hundmutter on 11 February 2014 - 08:02
People who want a dog firstly FOR sport or work do not tend, in the main,
to worry too much about whether it meets the Breed Standard in every respect.
They just want a dog which is fully able to move around physically in their
chosen arena, so they are concerned with overall construction, rather than
Conformation points. Indeed, many argue that the conformation, as the
Standard gets interpreted today, is actually counter-productive to the agility
of the dogs.
So if a working dog, and even an IPO dog trying to qualify for all-round
acceptance as a Show dog / "Good specimen of the breed", is an inch or two
larger - or smaller ! - than the Standard proscribes, or has a broader head, or
a shorter tail held up in a curve, they don't really care that much. [Survey
Reports should reflect these 'shortcomings' ... but they may not always do so.
]
Myself, I hear what the sport/working people may say, but I don't necessarily agree.
Just trying to explain here in an even-handed manner !
to worry too much about whether it meets the Breed Standard in every respect.
They just want a dog which is fully able to move around physically in their
chosen arena, so they are concerned with overall construction, rather than
Conformation points. Indeed, many argue that the conformation, as the
Standard gets interpreted today, is actually counter-productive to the agility
of the dogs.
So if a working dog, and even an IPO dog trying to qualify for all-round
acceptance as a Show dog / "Good specimen of the breed", is an inch or two
larger - or smaller ! - than the Standard proscribes, or has a broader head, or
a shorter tail held up in a curve, they don't really care that much. [Survey
Reports should reflect these 'shortcomings' ... but they may not always do so.
]Myself, I hear what the sport/working people may say, but I don't necessarily agree.
Just trying to explain here in an even-handed manner !
by mentayflor on 11 February 2014 - 16:02
Very complete explanation 
Thankyou!
Thankyou!by susie on 11 February 2014 - 18:02
Mentay, there is only ONE standard for all German Shepherds.
Within this standard there is a broad variety of possibilities.
A lot of working line owners don´t care too much about standard - a lot of show line owners don´t care too much about working abilities...
Judges are human beings - if a dog is a high rated working dog, they tend to overlook faults in standard - if they do see a beautiful show line, they tend to overlook temperament faults - not good for the breed, but maybe understandable...
Within this standard there is a broad variety of possibilities.
A lot of working line owners don´t care too much about standard - a lot of show line owners don´t care too much about working abilities...
Judges are human beings - if a dog is a high rated working dog, they tend to overlook faults in standard - if they do see a beautiful show line, they tend to overlook temperament faults - not good for the breed, but maybe understandable...
by clc29 on 11 February 2014 - 18:02
Before I start my response I want it known that I am NOT against the showline (altogether) and I appreciate the beauty in both types of the German Shepherd Dog.
However, I personally feel that either the breed standard needs to be tweaked/changed in some places and/or some form of agility test needs to be incorporated into the breed standard.
For example, I consistently read critiques of workingline dogs and almost always it mentions the croup being slightly short or slightly steep. The workingline GSD's croup is shaped and angled this way for a reason........agility. These dogs as a whole are much more capable (anatomically) to perform the working tasks they were originally bred for. I don't understand why (except purely for monetary reasons) the structure of the GSD has changed so dramatically over the last decade. There is a saying.....if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why are we still fiddling with the GSD's structure when all along we should have been trying to maintain it?
The other thing that I see all of the time, is the promotion of size...this one really bugs me. We should not be breeding bigger GSD's period! They are not horses....size does not make it easier for them to jump walls!
Hundmutter.....you are right...I hear it all of the time....Eh...he may not be pretty but he sure can work........IMO, this a not the right way to think. I do feel, however, that some things are not as important as others. For example, if I see a working dog with a slightly curvy tail or the ear set is not perfect, I'm willing to accept that (working towards correctness) as long as everything else is in harmony (structure, drives, disposition).
As an experiment, I compared the picture Susie posted, to pictures of Bomber, Drago and Pike del Lupo Nero (Three of the most popular working stud dogs right now). Of the three, Bombers image was the closest (almost exactly) to the drawing. Drago and Pike were very close, I expected that as they are closely related. So you can get beauty and structure to work harmoniously. I'm not that computer talented but it would be interesting to see what Ibrahim would come up with in terms of angles for these three dogs.
However, I personally feel that either the breed standard needs to be tweaked/changed in some places and/or some form of agility test needs to be incorporated into the breed standard.
For example, I consistently read critiques of workingline dogs and almost always it mentions the croup being slightly short or slightly steep. The workingline GSD's croup is shaped and angled this way for a reason........agility. These dogs as a whole are much more capable (anatomically) to perform the working tasks they were originally bred for. I don't understand why (except purely for monetary reasons) the structure of the GSD has changed so dramatically over the last decade. There is a saying.....if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why are we still fiddling with the GSD's structure when all along we should have been trying to maintain it?
The other thing that I see all of the time, is the promotion of size...this one really bugs me. We should not be breeding bigger GSD's period! They are not horses....size does not make it easier for them to jump walls!
Hundmutter.....you are right...I hear it all of the time....Eh...he may not be pretty but he sure can work........IMO, this a not the right way to think. I do feel, however, that some things are not as important as others. For example, if I see a working dog with a slightly curvy tail or the ear set is not perfect, I'm willing to accept that (working towards correctness) as long as everything else is in harmony (structure, drives, disposition).
As an experiment, I compared the picture Susie posted, to pictures of Bomber, Drago and Pike del Lupo Nero (Three of the most popular working stud dogs right now). Of the three, Bombers image was the closest (almost exactly) to the drawing. Drago and Pike were very close, I expected that as they are closely related. So you can get beauty and structure to work harmoniously. I'm not that computer talented but it would be interesting to see what Ibrahim would come up with in terms of angles for these three dogs.
by Sunsilver on 11 February 2014 - 18:02
[likes CLC's post] Those big, heavy 'stallion-type' males some show line people are so fond of definitely do not have the agility to perform as well as smaller, lighter dogs!
by susie on 11 February 2014 - 18:02
There is a difference between the written standard and " the human eye ".
If people would stick to the standard there would be less problems. if people would stick to the trial rules there would be even lesser...
If people would stick to the standard there would be less problems. if people would stick to the trial rules there would be even lesser...
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