Very low civil drive - Page 2

"Civil" in terms of working dogs and dog drive is NOT really at all like the normal use of the word (civilized, being social, friendly, approachable, etc).  I have no idea where the term came from as far as the dog definition and even with English as my first language it confused me at first because it seems to mean the *opposite*.  A civil dog to me usually means a dog with high social aggression, meaning the dog does not need trigger in prey or object-oriented (sleeve, etc) but the dog is very forward about showing aggression to people and dogs regardless of equipment or without being aroused in prey drive.  I think of it as a combination of defense drive and social aggression.  The dog will bite regardless of equipment.  It's not a game or a prey exercise but real to the dog and he means to defend.

There are many prey drive dogs that cannot be taught to bite humans in confidence. A dog with the right genetics can be taught to be civil, while other dogs with different genetics cannot be taught. I just saw a high prey GS washed out of police academy because when it came to biting for real the dog just didnt have it....but put a sleeve out there or ball or tug and the dog has plenty of drive. Some call it small prey drive.

Dear Koach

I would respectfully disagree that ring dogs only work in prey.  Some do, but I personally prefer to see balanced drives in ring dogs. I am not aware of any clubs in my area who deselect for defense, as long as the dog is clear and nerve stable. My mali is a ring dog and can work in either drive, depending on how we trigger him. On the face attack he would be in prey, on the escort his defense is more easily triggered. On the basket I am deliberately asking for more defense from him now, to make it less of an “obedience exercise” if the decoy uses a passive approach.

Daniela

Good Post Gustav. I call dogs that will only bite sleeves etc "eqipment oriented:" I had a wonderful girl who would spin a helper around she hit so hard, but take the sleeve away and she was nothing. I have a boy here who has never seen a sleeve or been agitated--the only kind of training he has had is basic OB, a little service work and a little fun stuff-shake hands, crawl, etc. He will bite for real--he has 3 bites--he has a solid nerve and he backs down from nothing. I had a trainer & K9 officer tell me about the eqipment oriented girl that he could fix all that. I don't think that he could have because she didn't have the nerves or the temperament for real work. I know in my boy it is genetic--it has to be.

VKGSDs 
Glad you said that - I too am confused about the origins of the term
and feel it is almost an opposite in dog terms use, to what the word
'normally' means.

Bee
"Ball drive is really prey drive".   Well I always assumed that, until I got
THIS dog;  he has pronounced "ball drive" insofar as I've ever heard
that described,  (always wants it as soon as he's off-leash,  will go to
lots of trouble to locate it when it lands out of sight,  plays Fetch until
I get knackered and say 'enough!',  carries a ball around in his mouth
all the time he has access, etc etc etc)  He is also a very cocky and
dominant dog. I don't know what he'd be like in bitework, as I have
only worked Ob and Tracking with him, and not too much of either in
any formal sense.  BUT he is not what I would call a "guard dog" - he
loves everybody [English/WGSL], he would let you drive away my car with
him in it,  barks a bit @ ppl coming to my door but that's all ... AND A DEER
OR RABBIT CAN JUMP UP & RUN ACROSS IN FRONT OF HIM AND
HE WON'T CHASE IT (& not 'cos I've ever deliberately trained him not
to do so, he just shows zero interest).  How can that be PREY drive, any
one  know ???

I thought the term civil derived from from the defense based training known as civil protection and was used to describe a dog that bites out of pure defense with prey not being involved at all.

Vkgsds,
Excellent description of a "civil dog."  I would add that a "civil dog" doesn't necessarily need to be "defending" something to bite or go forward with aggression.   A balanced dog can also switch easily and quickly from prey to defense as well.  

Gustav,
I absolutely agree and have seen that myself and we have washed dogs for it also.  I push dogs into "defense" pretty hard when testing and try to back them down with out any equipment.  We can weed the high prey / low defense dogs out very fast.  I look for dogs that are balanced but must have high prey drive, defense and civil.  High defense / low prey doesn't work very well for us either.  

30+ years ago a lot more German Shepherds were "civil" biter.
Training methods changed during this time -  for Schutzhund trials, drug detection, and SAR, later on ring sports, dogs with a lot of prey drive were ( and are ) easier to train.
A civil dog is no fun - I still own one at a time - but I´m living "at the end of the world" , and I know what I´m doing.
These dogs tend to be dominant, most of them you need to show their place in the pack order, not easy with family involved...
It´s easy to switch them on, but needs a lot of training to switch them off. You need to be able to read them.
These kind of dogs are not suitable for "normal" people.

Vkgsds, 
Great post!
The male I just lost, was what I would call a civil dog. He would not hesitate to bite/fight(no "flight" in this dog) when defending himself, his space, or his family. It was harder to get/keep him in prey drive when training in protection as he did not think it was a game. He did have high prey drive also & would do anything for his ball(made training OB stuff easy).
However he was a big love-bug when it came to his family. My daughter could hang all over him, rough house with him, etc. and he absolutely adored the attention. So while I had to extremely vigilant when having him out & about in public or during training(cuz he was not an equipt dog), I never ever worried about him biting his family.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge,

I understand what the term means now and I also understand that it is inherited, either the dog has it or it doesn't, the dog who doesn't have it can't be a successful Police dog or Protection dog as it won't bite for real in a real situation. Pardon me for asking for further explanation:

1. So civil drive is part of the dog's temperament?
2. Is it a true drive like Prey and Defense or it's an outcome/result of dog's "courage/aggression/and nerves) plus a trainer/Police Officer teaching the dog to act civil in a certain job/situation?
3. I just can't swallow that a dog is born with a drive to bite a man who did not make a threat to him in the first place, I imagine the Police Officer trained the dog to bite for real, how the Police officer managed to do this is because the dog has the ability, but not the drive to bite a man.