WHY ARE OUR SHOW GSDs. BANANA BACKED. - Page 9

Excuse me, I meant to say the wolf has a LONG upper arm, not a short one.

Can anyone give examples of dogs with extreem roaches. I came across this dog in an ad that I felt had more of a roach than I like. Is this what you are talking about. "Colia von saibing"

Hallo Pinerigde, Don't worry about Charles - loves being ornery - royalty has its priviledges - and yesterday was bad day: he had to shuffle smidgen of snow! Appreciate your insights - much better organised than mine! I've also surmised about that business of Breeders fighting to use certain expert handlers (some of which are so good they can even make lesser animal look fine!). Judge instantly recognises top handler and must quietly think to himself dog must be too! Wish somebody would precisely define 'banana-backed': I thought, few times I've come across it, that it meant opposite to roach, ie back dips in middle. I think trend to loosely ligamented, 'stretchy', over angulated animals is all wrong for a working animal. I sort of think of it in terms of 'compactness' (there's new term, for you). You know, one animal looks as if it all comes nicely and firmly together construction-wise, while another looks more extended, looser and 'stretchy' - I know I'm not explaining it well! With 'over-angulated' I was a bit careless before. I was largely really only referring to hind angulation! You alerted me to that when you said you wanted fore and hind angles to be the same or in harmony. The lack of such balance is precisely what I think is wrong with present style of Show winner. So, you see animal greatly angulated at rear, but at same time very much less angled, if not steep as well, in forehand. Also, I've seen roach also referred to as hyena-backed, and that's exactly what it reminds me of! One thing I haven't heard much of here is question of overall balance and harmony. It's what I always first look at: you know, are first third, middle hand, and rear third of animal properly proportioned. And is forehand (neck, head, chest, legs) at proper level and extended forward as it should be - instead of up too high (what I call the earlier English showstyle). A judge could explain it far better than me! Pardon Blitz, but I'm not sure comparison to wolfs help us much here. What's that phrase: Horses for courses? Also, to some extent, I think that if animal is borne with some particular defect in the wild, the physique or nature sort of compensates in some other way. And, a wolf needs to be light and 'spindly' to cover large distances and hunt at high speeds. This is just from someone who hasn't given that much thought, though. Oh yes, I've never really thought there was that much wrong with the Standard. (The German one that is, and before other countries started monkeying around with it). I mean, it was contrived with working animal in mind. It's the damned interpretations thereof and 'fashions' that screws it up. Wish a judge would explain to me logically how undue roach and excessive hind angulation agrees with the Standard or needs of working animal. Still, I 've already noted elsewhere how, with numerous subtle criteria to choose between, and careful ommission of this or that and careful emphasis elsewhere, a judge can 'defend' in writing any decision whatsoever - just as long as it's not too far out of whack. I've no expertise here whatsoever but if I applied myself, I know I could 'justify', strictly on paper mind you, any order of dogs judged on the day as I fancied! You say my selection is wrong? I say, on that day that was my opinion as a judge! And, if need be, I'll add: I've had so much immense experience herein etc, etc, - and what does an idiot like you know compared to me! End of story! And my club and every other judge will back me up! Didn't actually mean to bring this business up! King Charles and Blitz: well today? Pineridge, I thought business about moccasin snakes was interesting, and get sadistic delights at hearing about miserable snow! Regards.

Hallo Blitz, Saw you had 'minor' interest in Malamutes. Next to Shepherd, It's Breed I like best. Just noticed Wildthing's thoughtful contribution to Hip Grading topic --- have you?

Hallo DH, Only just picked up on your contribution to Hip Grading. Thank you. Different ways to define status of hip doesn't make direct comparison between certain countries any easier, does it? How are you? Regards.

Hi Patrishap, Yeah, there's probably not much coorelation of wolves to GSD's toplines, I was just responding to another poster regarding those incredible survival machines. I always wanted ot own a timber wolf, they are so magestic. Glad you like Malamutes, we have the same preference, first the GSD, 2nd the Mal. It is a fascinating breed, still very primitive in many ways and strangly wolf-like in appearance and actions. The only natural breed native to the continent of North America you know LOL. I did indeed read the Wildthing's unique take on hips xrays, OFA, Penn Hip and so forth. I've been thinking of nothing else all day. Mr. King Tut must be engaged in non-doggy activities this evening. Cheers....Blitzenstein the benounced

Blitz, Haven't seen many Malamutes, but loved once I saw. Saw another critter from there that had strikingly, pure blue eyes - didn't have chance to find out what it was - definitely not Husky. Know what you mean, from documentaries, about Timber Wolf. Also remember one about wolves, and the great distances they travel as matter of course over their own territory for victims. Where's that comedian Tut. Hope you're well

hiya guys n gals i made a picture diagram of how im understanding this thread added it to my webpage and included link so we could discuss this and see if im getting this. dont laugh very quickly made picture im being sincere about the discussion. http://hometown.aol.com/broyvo2/myhomepage/profile.html

Vader though this is straying from the topic, a bit of input on the temperament issue. Every GSD that has been breed surveyed has also been temperament tested, so yes, that means temperament is basically correct on these dogs . As a matter of fact, every dog with a BH has been temperament tested, because that is the base of this title. At every subsequent trial if the dog shows unacceptable temperament, it can be excused by the judge. Again, you are trying to look at perfect instead of good. Not every dog can be "perfect" in all areas. Seriously, and please do not take this personally, but when I read some of the comments here I am amazed at the lack of respect every single GSD deserves that has made it as far as the KKL! Even more so the dogs that have made it to top rankings at shows and trials. Also, what you call temperament other may refer to as nerves, drive, disposition, courage, etc. Then comes the understanding of what one calls good, others call acceptable and yet others again consider totally unacceptable. When I see people, supposedly experienced people, estimate a dogs "temperament" it often makes me cringe. We had a biting incident in one of the clubs I visit on occasion earlier in the year. 2 members of that club have been to the Worlds. 3 members are K9 handlers. There are several helpers, and the new owner that got bit by her new dog is an "experienced" dog trainer, who runs a dog training business. She also trains home protection dogs. We have had endless discussions at that club about the incident because everyone insisted there was no warning and the dog is just nuts. After pointing out some of the subtle signs dogs give, and even though I was not there at the time, I could give several details how this whole thing probably went down. Now some at least consider the possibility that there was a warning. The content of discussion proves that there were signs, they were simply missed. I had met the dog a year earlier when the previous owner came by to show me her new pride and joy. Oh boy.Good dog, but not for her. I told her back then that she needs to stay on top of him or within 6 months she will have a serious problem on her hands. That was about the time frame when the first less serious biting incidents started. The dog was made strong by a weak owner, who allowed him to sleep in her bed, babied him, etc, and an owner who was physically not capable of staying on top of such a dog, who is about 3/4 of her own body weight! Add to that a pedigree full of handler hard dogs that have shown tendencies for civil aggression, this was a distaster in the making. With the right handler, this dog could quite possibly have displayed a "good temperament" throughout his whole life. I would have not considered myself an appropriate handler for this dog. He was too large and strong for me. When I first met him I knew within 90 seconds that this a dog that would challenge me eventually but would be a physical challenge I would not want to take a chance on. Good handling and ownership is also knowing when a dog is not a good match... And another moral of this story is that a good dog can be ruined by often well meant, but tragically wrong handling. So how DO you determine correct temperament? Is it due to training? Has temperament possibly been ruined due to wrong training/handling/raising/socialization? Due to too much pressure too early? Or at least been altered? That is the very reason why the SV has implemented all the rules to eliminate the worst of the bunch. To get backto the specific case of a VA dog: such a dog has just had too much exposure throughout his career for that dog to have serious temperament flaws. I don't think the people on the board here can even come close to understanding the work involved to make and maintain a VA dog. The stress on such a dog is enormous.

In Germany a promising young GSD is destined for a "career" in the GSD world. There is no pussyfooting around! The selection process is tough and quick. Few breeders and trainers have the time and patience to wait, or willingness to spend money on 'what if' cases. IMO the show dogs have a much tougher career ahead of them as the working line dogs. The show males are usually expected to be SchH3 by the time they turn 2 years old, or at least shortly thereafter. That is when a serious working line dog is expected to still be training for a SchH1. In addition to SchH training, show dogs go through extensive conditioning and show training. All summer long. The top contenders are campaigned intensively and shown nearly every weekend. The working line dogs usually see the show ring once, preferrably in Youth Class where judging is a little more forgiving and an SG Youth Class always sounds better than SG working dog class. They are also trialed much less than a show dog is shown. If they trial a lot, every 6 weeks is a tough schedule for a working line dog. Once at SchH3 most trial at the qualifiers, and the big trials, and thats it. In addition to conditioning and ring training, the dogs going to the Sieger show also need to maintain their protection training. Working line people always make a point that the LGA trial will be held at a stadium! It IS a big deal. If they have qualified, they go train on soccer fields and stadiums whenever they get access to it, because they know how hard that is on a dogs nerves. The show dogs are expected to do their stuff without blinking an eye in a stadium that we all know has many more spectators as any LGA trial will ever have. The BSP and WUSV dogs usually already have one or more stadium trials and very extensive training in these arenas behind them. Most dogs there are also MUCH older by the time they compete at LGA or BSP level. So they are more mature and with that maturity also comes more confidence and routine. Lets take a very typical BSZS contender, I will use Hill Cohinor as an example. Hill is a typical young show dog that competes in working dog class and who had just turned 2 years old in July 2004. He already had his SchH3 on his second birthday or just after that, and then at the BSZS at the end of Aug 2004 had to wait a whole day for his turn at the bite work (he was on after 8pm) and is still expected to pass. He did BTW! That is an awesome achievement. Few people recognize that though. Few working line people would subject their dogs to this at such a young age, never mind that most of these dogs would not make it to that level so soon. The LGA/BSP dog has ONE handler looking after it and training with it exclusively for the whole year, possibly for years. Before a big trial if a family member or friend would as much as think about touching that dog, the handler would probably shoot them! If someone wants to have a look at the dog out of schedule, they get sent away, or if really close AND really important the dog is just taken out for a quick look, no fuss. The whole procress is very singular and focussed, and the dog is usually exposed to one person who is stressed by the event.