Good news? SV soon to be splitted! - Page 7

I am just an amature, a simple man.   But I dont think outcrossing with malinois, or god forbid did someone say wolves would solve the problem at all.   I do believe the technology exsists today to improve health and longevity, and maybe working ability as well.   Strong solidarity amoung breeders and competitors could change standards and maybe change the way dogs are being judged.  Some fresh thinking along these lines. No power politics, or big money rules. People.

DNA identification and study, artificial insemination from frozen semen of dogs who lived long in perfect health, free from physical and mental problems who had the working capabilities desired, dogs who produced desired offspring, could be used for selective breeding only after a life time has shown these traits to be true.  The test of time as it were.  This would take years of planning and study.  It couldnt have money as a motivator, or ego's.  Only for the sake of the breed.

And there has to be other qualities besides work and show considered.  Something I think the dog does best. Living with man, the dogs spirit, or maybe the word is heart.  A German Shepherd Dog pure and simple.  These selected lines could be incorporated into all lines to reinforce genetics across the board.

I dont think SV or any of these organizations can improve anything without a little common sense and a strong voice from every dog owner and breeder.   I dont think any of these organizations are in danger from new idea's, only arogance and corruption.

I think there are some worthy candidates out there for improving this breed, they just need a lifetime to prove it.  All good things take time. And they are all German Shepherds..

My two cents.

He was given an important position to influence the breed, and from most accounts he spent his time running around looking for publicity so he could spout off about how terrible things had become. He could have worked within the system to effect change in a calm, methodical way over a period of time, but it seems he chose not to.

Well, somebody has to publicize the problems in the SV otherwise you'll continue to have rubes out here buying poorly bred dogs and supporting these show breeders that breed for extremes and cold hard cash, in lieu of stable, moderate, standard dogs.

P5dtelltell  - you keep saying Raiser hasn't acomplished anything in the time he's been the breed warden. I say one, he has accomplished something by shining an eye on the problems plaguing the SV, and two, I take it you and most others on this forum have never faced the fanged maw of a committee of any sort, otherwise you would have a lot more respect for a single individual trying to intiate change in an organization the size and bredth of the SV. If people think you are going to suddenly screw with their ability to make money, despite what greater good will come of it in the end, they will lobby against you, trip you up at every turn, sabatoge your initiatives, and use every opportunity available to them to make you look incompitent. As someone else metioned, the same people who are telling Raiser to take a long walk off of a short peer voted him in, so they must have liked him until he turned out to be something other than a party line towing figure head!

As to mals - like 4pack said I don't think Raiser actually intended to introduce Mals to the GSD - there are plenty of stable, standard dogs among WL's that could be used to turn the showlines back toward a balanced, working animal.

Some of what has been said is patently false. Strong heads and substance are NOT the norm among "working lines".

But let me guess jdh, the hunched back akita headed hienas have that in spades, right?

Ok then, Raiser, you have a seat now, and while you're at it, burn the standard because this is a new day and age and people preferred deformed fluffy dogs, over the naturally structured utility animals of yester year. Let the SV continue down this path of breeding orange Shiloh Shepherds that burn out at 5 years of age, hell, by 5 years all guarantees have expired and all balances have been paid in full anyway, right?

I resurrected this thread a few days ago as there was a similar subject posted. I think the ongoing problems within the S.V. began with the brothers Martin and their firm grip on the destiny of what was the West-German show-line at that time. The brothers Martin were very successful breeders and had a significant influence on the S.V., to the end that the "standard" was mentally reinterpreted by the S.V.. Give me hell about that statement if you wish-I made it and I am a big boy.

Ajay and DDRShep, I understand exactly what you are saying here. I for one do not believe that introducing the Malinois into the GSD breedline will do much at all, and I do not think the S.V. needs to be divided. Do I think changes are needed? Sure I do. Okay, here's my dream for the new year, and I apologise if it begins to sound like Martin Luther's 95 Theses:

• The S.V. suddenly wakes up and recognizes that the F.C.I. standard exists. Realizing their mistakes of the past, they agree to judge conformation by this standard for all time remaining.
• The S.V. lowers its acceptable ZW breeding average from 100 to 95, and progressively lowers it one (1) point per year for the next four (4) years until the acceptable average is 90. It parses the data to see if improvement has been achieved.
• The S.V. recognizes that a dog does not have to be mahogany/black to win a V or VA seat and accepts all normal GSD colours.
• The S.V. recognises that for conformation-the dog will be judged solely on conformation with the F.C.I. standard.
• The S.V. places more importance on the working ability of the GSD-to the end that the BSP achieves a higher level of visibility than the BSZS.

Okay, that's five (5) "Theses" for the S.V. so everyone feel free to add ninety (90) additional ones. I think again that Dr. Raiser is correct in spirit but wrong in application of his ideas. I do think that he is a grandstander. I do think he is a blowhard. That said, I do admire his spirit for change but I do not think a second "S.V." will be successful-certainly not in the long term. Change inside the S.V. will only come with a change of personnel, and even that is still affected by the "big name" breeders who advise and steer the S.V.. Change must come from those guys first.

Let Me Have It-I'm Prepared,

Bob-O

I resurrected this thread a few days ago as there was a similar subject posted.

Bob-o - so you have me over here arguing with ghosts? LOL that's alright because as is evident, the topic is still relavent.

We call them GerBels... or.... GERMALs in this part of the world... and since the native dogs (MUTTS) in the country ( they are similarly UGLY, by the way...) which are known to be more intelligent than any foreign breed... You'll hear about working line enthusiasts going to extremes by crossin-breeds just to increase the intelligence of these dogs and their dependence to their masters.... DOGs that are willing not no eat but to eat only at their masters will...  But nonetheless... some Mallinois breeders like this one rely on a GSD's conformation to improve their breeding stock... "notice the head and focus on this Malinois pup...

Bob-O I love your use of a theological analogy. It’s very fitting to the GSD situation. But unlike Martin Luther’s problems with the church, this problem is not a political problem, it’s a problem with the religion itself. You cannot maintain a breed of performance animals with a closed stud book. It has never been done. The insistence that is must be done has no logical basis and is faith based. The SV has become The Cult of The GSD. You can post as many logical ideas as you want on the church doors but no one will pay much attention until their faith is shaken.

I also find it ironic that the only breed I have ever heard about outcrossing to is the Malinois. Why not some other breed? The Rottweiler might be a better cross for the showlines, seeing that the breeders love big heads and lots of bone. But we all know the reason why the Malinois is the outcross of choice. Working ability. Plain and simple. It’s the hardest trait to fix in a breed and the Malinois has it in spades. Maybe the GSD breeders should imitate what the Malinois breeders did to make their dogs great working dogs. But that would take the admission that the SV system is greatly flawed. And what breeder wants to admit that what they have been doing in the past was wrong?

Raiser has nailed his theses on the doors. He has left The Cult. It worked out great for Martin Luther and I hope it works out for Raiser also.

If the Malinois is so superior how come it has taken you all so long to find out? And, if as you say, the Mal has overtaken the GSD in that it is now the best breed for working ability, why dont you Manwork fanatics just go out and get a Mal ? I dont have a problem with those of you who are solely interested in Manwork and Working Trials, that is your perogative. However I do have a problem with those of you who then want to start messing about with my breed. 

In my Shepherds I want Courage, but not OTT hardness, I want sufficient prey drive as is necessary for the williness to work, but not an obsessive delinquent, I love my breed for all the other traits it possesses which I do not see as part of the Mals natural makeup, I like the instinctive intelligence, with an automatic instinc to guard & protect whilst still possessing the gentleness and nobility that comes with the GSD.

I dont want to own a cork screw breed so tightly wound up it constantly needs to spring into action, I want to retain the patience and calmness that allows my beloved GSD breed to be an integral part of my family with the ability to be perfectly satisfied to lie quietly and peacefully at my feet without any Hyper Activity trait.

For those who think it necessary to Mix and Match feel free to do so but do so to create another breed, please dont mess with mine.

A Genuine GSD Lover, who loves the breed unconditionally with or without all its flaws and imperfections.  

Sue B

Sue B I agree with all you just said except...it isn't "YOUR" breed. It's Max's breed and he defined the characteristics and form of these dogs 120 years or so ago. Go to the Historical VA list all of you who read. Take a real hard look at the first seigers. Then tell or show me what GSD's still look like this today? How many can post pic of dogs resembling the originals? Not many here will if they even have them. Why? Because they are ugly to todays invisable standard. All you with your pretty fluffy dogs, take a gander, they look like Mals, notice the coat leangth, the heads, the structure. Who are you fooling now with your fluffy dogs?

You all breed what you want to breed, what you find attractive or what attracts the all mighty dollar. Never the less, most tout that they breed for the standard. We can't all be right when we are all moving in a different direction! I like a dog that can work. I also like a dog that looks more like the dogs 100 years ago did. I have also been told I am ignorant or just can't afford a nice dog, so I get by with what I have.

I'm just glad I am the kinda person that goes my own way and doesn't much care what others think of me or my dogs. Call them ugly if you like but to me the majority of GSD's today, look nothing like what Max started us out with. I'll even say I like the fluffy dogs too, I find many dogs that don't look the standard beautiful, but we are twisting the breed. What irritates me is those who say they are breeding for the standard, when they clearly are not. They are breeding what sells and what is pretty.

4pack what you seem to forget is that what Max started us out with is not what Max expected us to end up with!  Read the standard yourself and even you must be able to see that what Max had to start with was not his idea of what was eventually desired.

I am not advocating that the breeders have always got it right but then nobody and nothing in this world is ever perfect. As for whose breed this is, the breed belongs to everyone who is a Custodion of it and as it is the ONLY breed I have ever owned or ever cared to own so YES it is MY Breed. If you like Mals then stick to Mals, I want to stick to GSDs, no-one has ever had a problem with getting my GSD's to work or with their courage or prey drive. 

As for trying to convince us the reason your dogs are poorly constructed  (I refuse to call them ugly because in my opinion no dog is ever ugly) is because you believe all should still resemble Horand, sorry but I'm long past falling for b***sh**.

If you could own a GSD that looked like a VA but acted like a Mal then I bet you would grab it with both hands. As for me I would refuse it because apart from not wanting to go back to looking like Horand I dont want Mal traits in my GSD's. thanks.

Regards

Sue  

Sue your diatribe might be a bit unfounded. The Malinois is not a only a "manwork" dog. They are a working dog and do all different kinds of work and activities. Further, most of the Mals I know live with and are part of the family. The only people that I have ever heard of that think Mals are unlivable, are those that have never owned one. Just because a dog shows a high level of arousal while at work does not mean that he stays at that same level of arousal at all times.

Your final statement fascinates me. You said you are "A Genuine GSD Lover, who loves the breed unconditionally with or without all its flaws and imperfections." So you mean to tell me that no matter how screwed up the GSD becomes you would never change a thing? If it was found out that some lethal gene was in all GSDs, and the only way to get rid of it would be to outcross, would you rather see the breed die?