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by LuvCzechDawgz on 20 July 2006 - 20:07
Sorry Shelly I have to re-post your message just because it was RIGHT ON POINT
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Our club, in Eastern PA, held a WDA training seminar and helper certification event with Steve Miller last month. I sent notice to every club for about 300 miles. Result:
7 helpers contacted me
6 helpers attended (including our 2)
4 helpers were certified, including 1 new teaching helper (Mike Andrel :)
I expected at least twice as much participation.
Coming from the NW Region (USA) I am constantly disappointed in how few people attend ANY seminars in my area no matter who is presented.
Case in point: The Raiser seminar in Atlanta.
The last one I attended drew about 200 people.
This one drew maybe 50.
Apparently the "gurus" who run the local clubs around here don't appreciate their flocks learning methods of training other than the few they themselves employ. Further, few want to expose themselves to criticism, however constructive, by submitting THEMSELVES to scrutiny in the presence of their respective followers.
Perhaps its because so many of the club training directors in this area are "pro's" who depend on charging people for working dogs, but I think a lot of it it just plain ego. It takes a certain degree of humility, a great deal of self-confidence, and a tremendous drive to be [one of] "the best" in the sport to step on the training field with your wonderful dog and let someone who has historically done a lot better than you have in the sport tell you what they think you ought to change in your training program. Personal insecurities are quickly exposed for all the world to see. IMO too few in the sport can take that kind of heat; far more comfortable to stay home and enjoy being glorified and indispensable "at home" with the uninitiated, the ignorant, and the just-plain lazy.
Hmmm... I expect this post will draw some fire.
So be it. Flame away.
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VERY VERY TRUE AND YOU COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT ANY CLEARER.
I had seminar co-hosted with OG Indianapolis for Koos Hassing Seminar (Tiekerhook) and most of the "pros" never showed. While the training may have been "barbaric" to some people, it was necessary. People who take protection training serious and not as play...
Anyway same with the Ivan Balabanov seminar. Seems like all the pros are staying home and most of the people registered are new to the sport or just recent to the sport. In a way that's great. At least they will start off on a good note.
But what about these 'pros" who could certainly use some help in just about every area based on recent trial performances.
People simply need to get over there inferiority complexes and realize even trainers like Ivan who places well at most trials can still learn a new trick or two.
It's hard to find good helpers and I'm holding on to my dear life with the really good one I have access to. LOL
by Tambone on 20 July 2006 - 21:07
I don't see this problem as being resolved in the near future.
I have 3 men in my group who are members of USA and wanted to attend a 'helper seminar' at a local club. All are members of USA although we are not a formal USA club. We were not welcome. Reason; we were not members of their club. And because they have that right under USA guidelines, they can refuse anyone entry at any time.
Yes, I contacted USA, President, Vice-President, and Regional Director. Where did this get me? No where. It's too bad, that we would need some kind of regulation in place to get people to "play nice". In my opinion, those who do not wish to include "all" members should not be able to host any type of event. It seems the helper seminar/certification was for their helpers only. What a waste of time and resource.
By the way, this club president is the same one I heard moaning and groaning at another seminar about the lack of helpers...so I think USA needs to get it's act together and quit kissing a** with these people and make them accountable to the rest of the membership. Play nice, be fair, or get out !!!
by LuvCzechDawgz on 20 July 2006 - 23:07
I agree Tambone. So often you see this events and the flyer reads something like "Club XYZ has the right to refuse any entry for cause"
CAUSE WHAT? You're a idiot and want to prove how much of an idiot you are. That's cause...
I can't speak for every Schutzhund USA region but the "chains of command" don't get involved in items like this but they should. Of course the club has the right to hold the certification for only their club members but in most instances it pays off to try to help other nearby clubs.
I had just broken off with a club in the midst of setting up the Ivan seminar that was going to include a helper certification but I had to cancel the helper certification portion because it had to be club sponsored in order for the registrants to receive credit for this certification.
I guess if some of us write as much as we do on here to the organizations over this club whether USA, WDA or GSDCA, maybe more attention will be put on these situations. Maybe not...
Good helpers don't come everday and they are certainly not born that way, so clubs need to do what they can to try to educated those that are seriously interested in obtaining as much real time training and/or seminar learning as they possibly can.
by VHDOOSEK9 on 20 July 2006 - 23:07
<<>>
Interesting!
As per section 10.1 of the Helper program, if your helpers were current USA members, Have a USA Helper book, and have necessary documents to prove that they meet the prerequisites for the classification that they desire to be evaluated at.
Then there should not have been any problems.
What was the presidents response and the vice president(also head of the helper commitee) response to this???
Uwe
by VHDOOSEK9 on 20 July 2006 - 23:07
<<<>>>>
BINGO!
Besides our SchH club, I also work with a group that work their dogs in agility, obedience, tracking and protection. Some are doing SchH, some personal protection, some are just giving their mix breeds some fun bites. No egos, No rush to title dogs, no gossip, just a group of people having fun with their dogs. A whole different atmosphere than what I see at many clubs.
I am fortunate to have in our club a very good group. As training Director, I encourage our club members to go to seminars, work dogs under different helpers, go to practice matches. Not that they change their training program after every seminar, but it gives them more knowledge overall. I can try something new that a club member picked up at a seminar or at least have the experience to explain why it won't work. Many a training Directors are very insecure , be it limited knowledge etc. to allow members to venture out. With the many years I have been doing SchH/Police/Private sector and dogs I've titled I cannot know EVERYTHING! Although I strive to know everything LOL.
Uwe
by VHDOOSEK9 on 21 July 2006 - 00:07
<<<(25 seems to be the magic numer) years have developed a preference for the type of dog they like to work, and a set way of training. They are very quick to write off dogs that don't fit their 'pattern'.>>>
And when they have only one way to work a dog that is a sign of very limited experience, no matter how many years they have been doing this. An experienced training Director or Training Helper can work any dog of any temperament and develop it. Now some of those dogs may never make it past a BH or a TR1 but you don't just write it of because it didn't fit the "Pattern"
by LaPorte on 21 July 2006 - 07:07
"I guess if some of us write as much as we do on here to the organizations over this club whether USA, WDA or GSDCA, maybe more attention will be put on these situations."
GOOD POINT and worth a try. Ever hear of strength in numbers?
I second all of Uwe's posts! And what is a possible telltale sign of limited experience (as in "And when they have only one way to work a dog that is a sign of very limited experience, no matter how many years they have been doing this."...)? They are very very quick to tell you that no one else knows anything, and when things don't work even QUICKER to say that you are a rotten handler, and your dog is a POS.
by agilhund on 21 July 2006 - 23:07
"They are very very quick to tell you that no one else knows anything, and when things don't work even QUICKER to say that you are a rotten handler, and your dog is a POS."
Boy, isn't that the truth. Not tall dogs and handlers have the same drive, temperament and learning ability. Instead of using an alternate method of training and instruction or suggesting outside assistance (GASP) it is easier for them to label the handler and/or dog inferior or incapable. Some helpers/trainers can not or will not change their cookie cutter methods despite the overall outcome or failure of the dog and handler team to move forward. We are fortunate that our training director is very encouraging, open minded and does not take that narrow-minded, selfish approach. However, there are clubs in our area where the members are "afraid" to go to a non-club sponsored seminar or another field to train as the training directors or helpers give them so much grief.
Tizz
by zdog on 22 July 2006 - 13:07
but then there are the basic things you must do as a handler and behaviors your dog must exhibit as well. There are many times, i've seen our helpers lay on the ground, run around like crazy, use buggy whips, pillows small tug toys, use barking, no barking, older dogs are excited in prey (well try to) by the toy moving, helper moving, etc using frontal, side, whips, sticks noises, no noise, facial expressions, not much, small things most people don't even notice.
And yet the dogs won't react, won't grip won't bite, the handler won't stand still, won't be a post, won't stop talking to their dog that is obviously distracted by them, don't let a dog come up and use its power to get the toy, helper etc, and they're so offended when they're told they aren't doing something right 10,000 times.
Do any of you complaining work dogs?? Do you know what its like to run around in 80+ degree weather with scratch pants and stuff on trying to frustrate your dog in prey only to have you move around and talk and distract your dog week after week?? Don't you think you'd be a little frustrated after a while working your ass off, only to get the attitude back that you aren't working the dog correctly???
Its a two way street people, until you've spent years on the other side of the leash. I haven't spent that long there, and didn't need to, to see how hard they worked and that some people holding the leash will never realize they and their dogs have some shortcomings when it comes to SchH. Not ever dog or handler will be on the podium, but most have the attitude that if their dog isn't on a sleeve in 2 weeks doing bark and holds and long bites, the helper isn't working their dog correctly.
by LaPorte on 22 July 2006 - 14:07
I think this thread shows the need for CLUB SUPPORT and TD SUPPORT. Many people are not criticizing the helpers here. In fact, many people are writing that even new helpers need to be given a chance and support, club members need to be able to visit other clubs and seminars without problem, and the 'expert helpers' need to be getting on the field at trials and attending seminars with their own dogs. This is actually all in support of good helpers that are out there giving their best effort.
IF the handler is the problem, how about some club support backing up the helper and/or helping out the handler? How about telling the handler who has problems to attend some outside seminars and possibly visit some other helpers? Perhaps they will benefit from hearing the same thing said in a different way, or will just move on - problem solved either way!
There ARE people who lack the physical coordination needed to handle a dog correctly, and in some cases it's not just a matter of explaining things that will make it 'click' right away. There ARE people who are blind to the shortcomings of their own dogs. There ARE people who just don't "get it". These same people are at times the ones who are quick to blame the helper, HOWEVER, no one is criticizing a level headed, hard working, creative helper in this situation. It seems that the criticisms here are of helpers and TDs that don't periodically encourage people to visit other clubs, helpers, and attend seminars, and of helpers that berate handlers and dogs in front of the club. There are good ways and bad ways to handle situations like this. Sure, if a helper has done everything possible to get a dog to work or to educate a handler, it must be more than frustrating, BUT I think the criticisms (at least my comments above) are directed at people who are very quick to trash others - other clubs, other helpers, handlers, and dogs. Saying that no one else knows anything about training, you are an idiot handler, and your dog is a POS is a far cry from "I'm doing everything I can and we're still getting nowhere, how about attending x seminar or visiting x helper/club and seeing what they have to say?" Some people and dogs will just simply work better with other helpers, and there is nothing wrong with that - doesn't always mean one helper is better than another, just that the trio (dog, handler, helper) might blend better.
I guess that would take a lack of a fragile ego, tho, to suggest that someone visit somewhere else. If the training isn't working - no matter WHOSE fault it is (bad dog, bad handler, bad helper), why should it continue ("and they're so offended when they're told they aren't doing something right 10,000 times" zdog.) ?? Handlers that TRULY REFUSE to learn, despite all efforts, aren't worth fighting to keep around.
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