Breeding/training goals - Page 6

Oh now we get unfounded statistical information (30% accurate/70% BS) when things are not agreed upon. But we're off topic from the main question anyway so we may as well end on a peaceful note.

<<>> A man with Character. <<>> In the last 5 years or so I have seen more working lines getting KKL than before, so I think the working people are making more of an effort to have dogs not look like coyotes than the show people are doing to improve temperament in their lines. <<>>> But the Martins changed that with the Blk/Red cookie cutter pattern of dogs. The days of the Mutz, Bodo, Bernd, Marko are long gone. Back to the "Direction and progress" You have some very good people out there really trying to better the GSD be it the work or show, but there is too many others out there who will continue to corrupt the GSD/Organizations/etc for the mighty $$$ and there is no shortage of customers. So it will always be an uphill battle.

Ajay, specialisation alone is not the problem IMO, its the practise of breeding for extremes that is generating problems. Its not enough to have a dog with good drives, it has to have extreme drives. Extreme aggression, extreme hardness, etc. The GSD was never meant to be a dog of extremes. Good in many areas, yes. But not all areas either. People seem to have developed this need for the super dog. As to some of the most successful working line breeders in Germany, ie von Karthago and vom Salztalblick, neither are or have ever been top competitors, or even much of every day competitors. But they very consistently breed very good dogs. And for varying purposes within the working field. Show line breeders too look for working ability, but that alone is not enough. It is far more challenging to breed an excellent show line dog that can do it all than a working line dog. No one bats an eye if a working line dog barely meets the breed standard, but everyone bats an eye if a show line dog barely meets working standards. The meeting of the standard is defined from ... to and everything inbetween. Meeting the standard does not mean 100% in all areas. As to the comment why VA dogs are not competing at BSP and WUSV – because there is no time. You cannot do both. One owner will spend the whole season hoping to get one single working line dog qualified for the BSP. If you would add to that a schedule of nearly weekly appearances at shows, stud service, ring training and conditioning, it is simply not possible to maintain VA condition of a dog that would also be competing in competitive SchH the same year. People outside of Germany are way too often quick to judge without knowing much of the inside workings. Neither of what it takes to get to the BSP, such as finish in the top of one of 19 LGAs, some of which have tougher qualfying requirements as the US Nationals for example, and more competitors, some also require a dog to participate at the FCI LGA the same year. Many of Germanys top working dogs won't even make it to the BSP, so its quite an assumption that one should have the time to prepare a VA dog for such an event in addition to the BSZS. Never mind that a show person has show as their hobby, not SchH. How many SchH enthusiasts would take the time to campaign their dogs weekly in the show ring all season long? No one in the SchH scene would ever consider that. If you want the playing field level for both camps, then expect top SchH dogs to show at the same level as show dogs do. As for show line dogs not being able to do the work in the real world... some of you may have had the pleasure of meeting Mike Andrell of Barthco. He is an active K9 handler and has always had show line dogs as his active working dogs. And would not want to have it any other way. Often enough when you turn on the news and a K9 is shown its a show line dog. German police certainly has not issues about taking on show line dogs. The individual dog is tested, not his background. If he passes, he passes. cont...

Grips are genetic, but the fascination with the full grip is a phenomenon of the sport, not related to real or K9 work. A K9 needs to be effective, not precise. For a K9 the grip needs to be firm, not full. Out in the real life no officer cares if his dogs regrips. As long as he holds on. In less than ideal conditions such as low light or tight spaces the dog may not have the luxury of being offered a good biting surface, so anything will do. In more recent times, the times where the law needs to be cautious of „use of excessive force“ the firm, calm, full grip is starting to make its way into K9 requirements as well. Get the bad guy but don't do too much damage... Stuff like that influences breeding programs. Today there is also often the request for a „really hard dog“. Very few people can handle even a reasonably hard dog though, and with hardness handling abilities are also sacrified. To make up for it, more drive is needed. In sport precision is what produces the big points. Repetition in training produces precision. So the dog needs even more drive to be able to be worked through all these repetitive training steps, and through endless corrections. Way back when, when dogs looked different, they were worked very differently too. The extremes of today were not present. The Dual Purpose K9 for example is a modern development, it did not exist in the 70s. And IMO it has been one of the most damaging to GSD breeding in recent times. You can really see the „modern“ development in the turn the pure DDR dogs have taken in recent years. Try to find an old type DDR line dog, with old DDR attributes that is. The „new“ DDR line dogs are starting to get just as drivey as the Western sport dogs, and their appearance is changing too. Dog1, for the most part I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially regarding accuracy of information put on this board. I do disgree though with 1 in 100 show line dogs having what it takes. We see far more than that, but we also actively look for them. What we see way too much of though are dogs who have not been started properly, often to the point where correction of the problem is only partially possible. Ocassionally dogs are messed up beyong fixing. That goes for working line dogs just a it does for show line dogs. Overall way too few young dogs will ever reach their full potential because their owners and training infrastructure use a one size fits all approach and if a dog does not fit that - its a bad dog. One of the biggest problems in breeding today is still a lack of understanding of a dogs developmental needs in the first year. Socialization is so important and it encompasses everything that gives a dog a good start in life and does influence trainability very strongly. Breeding alone is not enough of a factor here. Good and bad pups happen in both camps. Dogs have many pups because nature needed them to fulfil a variety of jobs in the pack. Not every litter can have all alpha pups all the time, now would we want that. The breeding goal towards extremes will lead to a tight spot. Sensible breeding practices are just that – sensible. cont...

There is nothing wrong with producing a good pet dog. They still make up the majority of puppy placements. Not because of the mighty buck, but because there are not that many specialized homes available. Anyone who breeds for such extremes better be prepared to find the appropriate homes. Be it show homes, or working homes or K9 homes. Most puppy buyers want to have a physically and mentally sound puppy that will give them little grief during a long life. Out of 20thousand GSDs born in Germany every year less than 10% make their debut at the Sieger Show each year. Even fewer get trialed in the top levels of SchH sport every year. The rest are pets, and many still enter the breeding pool, because there are more deciding factors of breed worthiness than participation at a National Event. AlabamaK9 – why do you not show Zidane at a Sieger Show? Its not your thing, so you will neither be good at it, regardless of how good the dog may be, nor will you have much enthusiasm for it. So please do not expect a show person to competitively trial their top show dog. They want to show. You want to work. Both of you do the other as a necessary evil that is part of the whole. Your statement that „generallly speaking the working lines always excel in the working abilty“ unfortunately could not be farther from the truth. With more years of breeding you will come to see some of that as well. Many, many working line dogs do not make the cut. Not everyone has a Zidane in their stable who produces consistently. People still want to do their own thing, cook up their own breedings, and it does not work every time. Breeding is still trial and error. A dog that produces consistently is a stroke of luck and you have but a handful of these dogs available every year. It is not the norm. Why do the dogs look different now as in the 70s,? Simple. For the same reason the dogs in 1900 or 1930 looked different. It is a natural development, just like the split between show and working lines. Every breed evolves. Very few people realize that the original standard was for a dog 2 inches smaller than the standard is today, several people here have already commented on the original GSD looking more like the Malinois of today. Go back to some original pix of the breed. The working line dogs look very different too since the dogs of the 70s. Because back then there were no specialized working dogs. If the looks of working line dogs was allowed to evolve, surely the looks of the show line dog was allowed to evolve. And appearance will keep changing with the ever changing tastes and fads that people can think up at any given time. Mistakes in breeding are made and then over time corrected. That is the natural way of things. Today, IMO the show line breeders have an advantage in their future breeding programs as they still have room for improvement in working ability as a whole. I think that is mostly due to the competitive nature of some breeders, who are rediscovering the SchH sport as an extreme sport and validation. I see many show line breeders taking pride in dogs that work well, as well as move well and look good. The imporance of maintaining show ability will keep extremes in check. Working line breeders have already manouvered themselves into a pretty tight spot. How much more extreme can the working lines become? The working line camp is also on the verge of splitting into three camps: one that is breeding the points dogs that may work with extreme precision but is overall missing some gusto, and one that wants to breed the mean kick a** type of dog, and one that is trying to go back to a more balanced dog and want to combine look and trainability. cont...

There have been comments on this board that way back when one could pick a pup blindfolded out of every litter and always get a good pup. That is about as true as a fishermans yarn about his last catch. Back then things were not quite as competitive in SchH, K9 requirements were nothing of what they were today, and if a private owner got an upstable pup then the dog was a little „sharp“ and the owner would just put a „Beware of dangerous dog“ sign up and was happy that he would not have to worry about break ins. He was not going to take his dog anywhere anyways. The expected life span of a GSD was 6-8 years and if the dog showed first signs of serious sickness he was put down. Do you really think anyone in the 70s had every heard of cauda equina, hypothyroid, EPI, etc? Or bothered with it? Times sure have changed... Be careful what you wish for. Things were not all candy way back when. Today, breeding for extremes IMO only serves the single mindeness of the breeder or the owner of such a dog. The sensible approach to breeding is still for the whole dog, and litters that could set out to do many things, from couch potatoe, to herding dog, to service dog, to sport dog, to show dog. Dogs bred to any extreme will end up serving only a single purpose and that was never intended for the GSD. The show line dog still has somewhere to go. The working line people have to make sure their dogs still have somewhere to go as well...

Just taking the bait here, Yes, there ARE working AND show line breeders who are trying hard to come to the point of intersection of the V-VA conformation as well as V working competition scores. Me being one of them! It is a terribly hard battle when people refuse to see the value of this and write off a puppy with excellent potential for BOTH, because they don't want to "take a step back" in either conformation or work. In order to promote a better balance we NEED working and show homes to take the chance on the product/puppy of our years of research and planning. I for one would be more than willing to discount my puppy price to an excerienced working or show home, for the chance to show the positive progress that we are making. If for some reason it did not work out, then sell the pup to a pet home. But just belly aching about working or show is getting no one anywhere!!!! My challenge to everyone is to get out there and deligently search for dogs that will improve and compliment your breeding program whether it be work or confomation. Take a chance to help improve the breed! Debby

On the comment of Germany using the showline for police dogs doesn't add much value to how strong the dogs are physically or environmentally. Germany seems to be becoming "overly laxed" in their breeding practices too. The $$$ seems to have more and more influence on them as well. Here in the US, it's certainly no feat to have a dog you bred put on a police department. For the most part some of these departments are very new, inexperience and don't know the first thing about bloodlines or some of the tests they perform are pretty weak. I know a close friend who sold a police dept a half American line/half German working line dog. Yes he could bite but I think that's about all they tested. Having the time to prepare a showline dog for the BSP doesn't hide the fact that a lot of these dogs are still not like older VA dogs in being bred to work and have nice confirmation. That's (2) different points here. Perhaps they call them track athletes and assume this is work but I won't go there... Breeding for extremes in one area does not really mean you're going to lack in another. With anything there requires some balance. I think some people use the word extreme loosely. At least I do. Although extreme drives are nice. Extreme angulation gives me nausea. DH you make the comment to AlabamaK9 about not expecting these dogs to competitively show. I don't think it was said to "competitively show" but to simply breed them to work as ALL German Shepherds should have been created to do. Do you disagree with that statement? If not, give me your input on it

Personally, some 50 plus years after breeding my first litter, some six "homebred" generations in my kennel as we speak--- The biggest question I have lately is where did all these "2 different breed (insert your own word)" come from these past few years. And I don't believe it is the inventors, but the vendors doing it all. Some of the "big talkers" should do some serious research because so much stupid does NOT bode well for them, individually, or for our beloved breed. Food for thought---- It is not the length of the tooth, or the power of the jaw! In the end it is the overall "CONFORMATION" of the dog that allows it to do everything it was was bred to do. If you do not understand this--- don't breed, don't brag, READ, and change the folks of whom you have been asking questions. I am sorry, but enough stupid is enough! Morgan

"It is not the length of the tooth, or the power of the jaw! In the end it is the overall "CONFORMATION" of the dog that allows it to do everything it was was bred to do" OH YEAH? So a dog that has good confirmation also has good steady nerves, has sufficient drives to do good protection work and has enough courage to handle a few stick hits? I'm making sure I am translating your comment correctly