"Nice 4 mths old male Shepherd - pet/working/show" - Page 5

Exactly Sunsilver!! To talk about color and genentics though. I can add a little. Many years ago I bred a black sable male to a black and tan female (GSD'S). They produced : 1 blk/tan 2 chocolates (solid) 1 liver and tan 1 rare liver sable :(golden under coat and liver tips. nose and nales liver in color. eyes golden) Now , I did not personally set out to produce that, but obviously it happened. When it comes to genetics , we will never fully grasp the broad spectrum of genetic variation lurking in the past. Whether it be ressive or dominant the genes can decide to make all sorts of combinations, depending on genotype and phenotype. Then you start getting confused as to what really is a dominant trait or resesive. Colors and patterns can be completely seperated from one another. One does not necesarily dictate the other ever. Now, there are colors and patterns that are more often seen together. LIke a saddle is a pattern, but a black and red is the color. You can have a Sable with the pattern of a saddle. ( of different colors ), just as you can have a black and red Sable, with now pattern of a Saddle. I personally find the panda's , liver's, blue's and any other color fascinating, looking at it from the standpoint of genetics. And who really knows but, Max von Stephanitz, what breeds were mixed with the Gsd's. It was 100 years ago the breed was started. And I guarantee the Whites were definately before Black and Red! Look at Rin tin tin for example the first known shepherd in the Us, was extremely faded when it comes to color. And Rin Tin Tin was directly from the original Stock back in 1918. Just because WHITE went out of Favor, and Black and Red came into favor, does not mean the dogs are good or bad. Just, like angulation or not , banana back or not. sable or not. This all boils down to one persons taste, and then if they like what they see, they try replicate it. http://www.rintintin.com/photo.htm Back in 1922 their is a photo of a brindle shepherd in GERMANY. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/images/brshep.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/gsdbrindle.htm&h=357&w=473&sz=52&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=cGTalbqVbHZ_EM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrindle%2Bshepherd%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den Now, just think ! If Max had decided that he liked the brindle, you might all be fussing that the black and tan is not normal. The creation of new breed color (or variation) is not really determined by humans , rather by genetics. Though, the human can decided to continue to try to replicate what nature through at them. But, if you disagree with people doing that, then you have to disagree with every breed out there (including German Shepherds of any color). Even Max did not create Horand, rather he tried to replicate him and succeded. Max was not prejudice of what went into the dog as far as color goes, that is why all these variation pop up. He was focused on what the dog was as an individual, and what purpose he had in mind for the dog as a whole. Which was not just a police dog , but one that is as desirable to all human needs as possible , whether it be family, farm, police, Sar, utility, leading the blind, showing ect... For one breed to be so many things, not every puppy is intented to do only police work, or only showing . Just my thoughts ! : )

you know the original rin tin tin was a well pigmented dog, the one you got to see on tv most of the time later was washed out because its COLOR looked better on screen with the black and white film at the time. The well pigmented dark dogs had too much contrast and didn't look good on the screen.

You obviously missed my point. Though, yes the ORIGINAL Rin Tin Tin's coat was considered a Dark Grey. My point was about the genetics involved, and even though he was darker , his genetics are what produced the other Rintys, that were on TV. And He along with All of His progeny were NOT Blk and Red. Up until near the 60's you did not see the Tan or Cream under coat turn more towards the Red. So, when I was refering to the coat being more of a faded tone I was refering to the undercoat and the other color points on the dog , besides the black tips. Areas , like legs, face , underbelly, undertail, tailfeather, leg feathers, ect. Which, is an open door to other color options that are not deep pigmented. : )