by Hired Dog on 27 November 2020 - 06:11
Look at video of those dogs doing the "heel" exercise back in 1920...nothing like a dog doing it today where the highlight is the trainer's skill, not the dog's genetic abilities which are the only thing that can be passed on.
How a police dog is trained and what is expected out of an actual street dog depends a lot by culture. In the UK where guns are not as common as in the USA, dogs could be trained to find and bark. To someone like me, that makes zero sense because people here do carry guns and its much easier to control a person that has an 80 pound dog on top of him, rather than one barking and running in circles.
We have become softer as a society and as a result, our dogs have become softer, that also has affected police dogs working today.
While I do not feel like Valk does about prey drive, I do believe that there are dogs that work strictly out of prey. Yes, these dogs have a huge interest in biting, yes, they will likely bite anything, but, just like everything else, it must be balanced.
I believe that prey drive has its place as much as I believe that chasing a ball and hunting for one does, but, there must be some seriousness involved too.
I do like a dog that barks, under the proper conditions, but, I cannot stand that mechanical prey bark most dogs offer today.
In real life, I want to hear a real bark, deep throated, guttural bark, one that sound like the gates of hades opened and something bad is about to happen. Police dog work is a lot of psychological intimidation too and it can end a potentially dangerous situation before it starts with the right dog present.
I am very interested to see what others have to say today about this.
by Hundmutter on 27 November 2020 - 07:11
"Yes, but" - sorry, Hired Dog, the SV adopted the German Police requirements in the light of need; when Max wrote his evaluation of Hector / Horand, he said it was a pity they had not had some form of military or police service training at their disposal (because it would have steadied that otherwise brilliant dog). (But societal 'need' too, of course !) There were no 'Police Dogs' in use at the beginning of the 20th Century, only some experiments.
So I don't believe the SV had any intention of only doing any sort of 'aptitude testing' or, at that stage, of making a 'sport' out of work. All of that has been superimposed and re- re- reinterpreted by Kennel Clubs and Training Clubs, and individual trainers, as the years have passed. Whether they SHOULD have done or not is the question - maybe some of it was essential, some wasn't but happened anyway. But it does not remove what was originally thought right for the emerging breed. So what ValK believes is, I feel, somewhat inaccurate, even if that's what we have to deal with in today's world.
As to your raising the quality of the bark, I get it, 'cos I don't much enjoy listening to the sort of bark you describe either; but could that not be a 'modern' product also ? I cannot imagine that was in the minds of those writing the Requirements / notes that I quoted above; I would think they far more had your final description in mind. Maybe it is a result of too much training in the 'wrong' drive - I don't feel qualified to comment on that.
by Hired Dog on 27 November 2020 - 08:11
If that was the case, all police dog requirements would be identical the world over and all training would match everyone else's, but, while the fundamentals are the same, for sure, the rest are trained according to what agencies and trainers perceive is to their best interest or knowledge.
Absolutely correct, none of the current sports today started out as such, they were serious tests to determine breed suitability and with time and different changing attitudes and such, they all became what they are today.
As far as the bark, I believe that its a product of breeding today's dogs, more prey driven and more prey trained, easier, so, they bark out of prey.
by ValK on 28 November 2020 - 12:11
"7 To give voice on command (lying down, sitting, standing and whilst moving)... II"
what purpose other than to demonstrate dog's trainability?
"3 Giving voice continuously (man protected, dog free) III"
vocal warning (growl, bark) to prevent assault. intelligent, well bred GS dog should have such behavioral response by innate, not trained and executed on command.
"2. Giving voice continuously II"
"3 Seeking for and giving voice at the hiding place or bringing back an object thrown by the criminal III
key word "hiding" (also can be "unreachable" location). not need to be trained. very-very rare dog who won't express vocally own frustration of inability to get in direct contact with object of the search. i can'r recall if i ever have seen such dog.
"bringing object thrown by criminal" - not only useless but absolutely stupid requirement.
i think that some time ago i did explanation but if you missed... due to working environment the prey was undesirable trait. border zone was no-men territory and due to this quite densely populated by wildlife.
on the foot patrol one of the dog's duty was to alert handler about hidden presence of human (scent, hearing) but not react to presence of wild creatures.
training was based on utilization of the willingness of dog to cooperate/interact with handler but not on prey drive. there was some non-cooperating dogs and such dogs were washed out of program.
by Hired Dog on 28 November 2020 - 14:11
Not only can it get a gun off the street, for example, where a kid could pick it up, but, it can help convict a person easier if you have a weapon the dog found or stolen items or whatever.
The wall came down a long time a go, we have moved on and when we speak of LE dogs, we are talking of current dogs working inner cities mostly and suburbs. No wild life here really, but, even if there were, prey drive does not mean the dog will go after it, unless not properly trained.
Prey does mean the want and desire to chase a human, it is part of what makes a dog qualify to become a detection dog and a good one.
Even if the border patrol did not like it, I am not sure why you dont. I will try to find a post made here by a member who is working police dog handler and selects as well as trains dogs for his agency, you may enjoy it.
I know for damn sure that a well selected and trained patrol dog will alert to a human hidden, I have seen it hundreds of times, but, there are no guarantees, not with the border patrol dogs nor the current ones working today that they wont alert to an animal...its called nature and it does happen, so, you train your dog to not go after it.
by Hired Dog on 28 November 2020 - 14:11
It seems many people knock prey drive these days and "high prey drive" dogs. I have and work a very "high prey drive," higher prey than defense and very high drive, high prey (did I say that already?) dog that will easily engage a man with serious aggression on command or with the slightest provocation. The dog is 60 / 40 prey to defense. I instill the prey drive especially in bite work! Please realize that prey brings speed, prey drive brings hard hits and take down decoys or bad guys. Speed is what brings power and that power takes subjects / decoys down. A dog sent on a down field hit working in prey will bring explosive speed and power. A dog taught that a man running, charging and screaming straight at him is prey will bring explosive speed and power. That is really the key that many seem to miss when it comes to "prey drive" dogs. After the hit the dog can switch to defense and fight, before the hit it is prey. A high prey drive dog will have a longer more satisfying and rewarding career than a lower prey drive dog. Prey is essential, balanced with natural aggression. If we lose the prey drive in our working GSD's we will have nothing but a nasty nerve bag in GSD fur. If we reduce the prey than I will only select Malinois and Dutch Shepherds and it is getting that way. Balance is the key and for me that balance is high drives, slightly high prey than defense, good nerves, clear head and true aggression in a fairly social dog.
Too much defense brings insecurity, weak nerves and a whole lot of other issues.
Here you go Valk, I found it and I hope you enjoy it.
by ValK on 30 November 2020 - 12:11
but what it has to do with "hold and bark"?
2. it's not about chasing. it's about reacting and alerting. upon sensing out of view the deer, fox, etc. dog should remain indifferent but react, alert and led handler to location if senses hidden human presence.
3. so you think border dogs without exaggerated prey drive didn't tracked down and chased humans?
i have seen similar view and perceptions before and no, i not enjoy it.
its only demonstrates that person, who expressed it do not familiar with other type of dogs.
due to a trends of western commercial breeding such views understandable. all that crap about "power" of flying during an attack dogs is just a crap based on sensationalism of visual spectacle. leave it for sport scene. in real attack last thing you need is a flying dog.
by Hired Dog on 30 November 2020 - 13:11
So, in your opinion Valk, no other dogs but the DDR ones are worth being working police dogs, ok, I got it, thank you.
by ValK on 30 November 2020 - 19:11
by Hundmutter on 01 December 2020 - 04:12
I just included that reference to the retrieval of something a perp has thrown away because it was in context with the bits I'd selected requiring 'voice' from those old original Police tests requirements. But I completely agree with what HD says in response on that one. Maybe now today we DO have better forensic science, and thus would not actually want a Police Dog to pick up and return an item, in case it inadvertantly destroyed fingerprints on a gun or a bag of drugs etc - but the K9 should be able to spot and indicate such throwaways so the handler can retrieve them properly.
HIred Dog I realise all such tests and requirements have formed a basis for identifying suitability - but they were also, when drawn up, Requirements for the actual, new, 'job' of PD, not just preparation/selection for it. So ValK is wrong in frequently implying that all Dogsports were DEVISED as a game and a 'test' and therefore not for the real purpose of carrying out 'real work'.
Of course there have been changes to the way Rules are (a) worded (b) interpreted & (c) applied in practice, down the years into the ways of our more modern society. And the Sports element has changed alongside that.