by ValK on 26 August 2020 - 11:08
i again may refer to duke's link to old video, which clearly demonstrate big framed roti make jump over 2 m. vertical wall in both direction even without using preliminary run which could provide additional kinetic force of inertia. if for you this a proof of lack of agility then i really lost and must accept that kind of dogs you refers as ones closer to standard and who with noticeable difficulties go over "A" frame, is a true german shepherd dogs :)
patrol on border mainly consisted foot patrol with dog as a helper to human, providing an early alert, detection, apprehension and protection in case of resistance. dispatch of patrol teams on locations was done by military trucks, thus there was plenty of room for several teams in each truck.
some of dogs with handlers also dispatched to work on crossborder check points where main work was to sniff vehicles and luggage.
beside the strength an agility and endurance of dogs was important part of training. unlike in sport, where discipline is broken into separate categories with a breaks during execution, certification of patrol dog was one prolonged process, recreating a real life situation with maximum possible harsh and difficult environment, which demand a really good endurance of dog to pass it.
many time i pointed - breeding selection in there were specific and wasn't to impress potential buyers by the looks of dogs but produce a dogs, who best suited to fulfill necessary requirements.
by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 12:08
Once again, I am not a sport aficionado, but it seems you cannot miss an opportunity to tell everyone how useless they are.
Can you do me a favor, can you describe to me EXACTLY what "harsh" means when you say it in relation to training or testing of dogs? Was it like, we kicked the dogs as hard as we could and beat them with baseball bats and such? I am starting to get very curious about that...
Like I mentioned in a previous post, I am all for testing my dog, but, on equal grounds, no suit, no sleeve.
Finally, the people who breed police dogs or military dogs, what potential buyers do you think they are trying to impress with the dogs looks? Most of them dont even have papers, a lot of cross bred Malinois X or GSD X or whatever...
Valk, once again, the past is a point of reference, not a place of residence. Different times call for different dogs, different training methods, different ways of dealing with the criminal element, etc, this is not 1975 behind the iron curtain....
by Hundmutter on 26 August 2020 - 12:08
ValK you refer to the 'big framed' Rott, but we have no way of knowing how much that actual dog weighed ? Or how frequently it was asked to jump ? I am not saying a bigger GSD cannot jump because it is too heavy; what I am saying is that the GSD was developed as a multi-purpose breed, and that if you want a dog to do "everything" then you need to enable it to do ALL the stuff it is good at, multiple times, without causing itself a lot of damage over time. Maybe a bigger dog can jump, but maybe it should not be expected to do so as a regular thing ?
by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 13:08
by ValK on 26 August 2020 - 14:08
i don't know roti's weight in video. but being familiar with breed and comparing size of dog to size of handler and this handler's tall comparing to standard 2m. wall does provides approximate data.
as for "how often that dog jumping" i would like to ask you - how often your dogs, who i presume pretty much up to standard, uses own jumping potential?
i really don't understand what a difference years should make in regards of quality potential of dogs.
sure, now in the world not as many countries with iron curtain type of border and nowadays borders in Europe rather figurative simbol than what it was. does that mean that decades of development and experience was put into achieving top quality dogs should be dismissed as an unnecessary relic of the past because there no borders anymore? if so, then why presence in pedigree of dog an ancestors z PS is main reason of hopes for better dog and main point for dog's owner proudness and bragging?
you excuse me but i really become tired of your constant returns to toughness and harshness of treatment of border dogs during certain phase of training. i just described standardized and accepted approach in preping and testing those dogs, which was (agains) set on foundation of decades of experience. that all. if you don't like it, no one ask you to perform it with your dog. saying "harsh environment" i don't refer exclusively protection. it's more refer to a conditions that can affect quality of work, in which dog performing tasks, it's could be different sort of physical obstacles and arising complications, which demands dog's ability to think, assess, solve and demonstrate ability to quickly adapt to changing situations.
you equating border dogs to dogs, used to guard prisons. i truly don't know if that can be compared, never seen prison's dogs. but what i know for sure, there were scorn between border and law enforcement. it was separate institutions and unwritten rule was "no cooperation of any kind". at leas local police never asked for dogs from border breeding because did know about that and did payback by same disdain.
b.t.w. jump over 6' isn't about of sending dog into unknown but to see dog's potential and improve dog's confidence during executing such task.
by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 14:08
Valk, the difference now is that its a different world, we have become more politically correct, more pussyfied if you will.
We are at a point that everything offends everyone and people are looking for reasons to get offended. EU no longer has capital punishment, a person who killed 70 innocent civilians, kids, gets to live in a bungalow style "jail" for 12 years and maybe let back into society...do you not think all these issues have affected how people view police or dogs or bites or breedings?
Yes, decades of experience and practice ans such pretty much went to the wayside, because society has decided that they dont need those type of dogs, for the most part.
Why do people brag about their Lamborghini Valk? Is it because they will ever drive it at top speed or because they want people to know they own one? Same reason people want those dogs, for the most part again, there are always exceptions.
Now, you can get as tired as you like, but, you are the one that keeps bringing up "harsh training and conditions", not me, I am just curious what it all means.
No, I am not equating anything, I was making an analogy for the CO you asked me about...I have seen them used in prisons in .Russia. I have also heard that they make awesome guard dogs for ammo dumps and such.
Finally, training a dog to jump, yeah, I can see the confidence it may bring out in some dogs, but, my opinion on not sending my dog over something I cannot see still stands.
On the plus side Valk, I live in the middle of a large city and I do have a 6 foot privacy fence in my back yard...can you imagine my dog jumping that fence now that I taught him how to do it whenever he got bored?
by Hundmutter on 26 August 2020 - 14:08
I have never encouraged dogs to jump either, partly because of not wanting Houdini escapades every time an in-season bitch passes on the street ...
but for sports / training (rather than LE ) purposes, we know a lot of dogs are still put over 6ft obstacles, and certainly there was an expectation of the original dogs that they would be able to jump. Higher than 6 feet, if old photos, documents and Trials regulations are studied (requirements having reduced with society changing, like Hired says). It is of course very different to put a dog to a hurdle on a flat Trials field, than to point that dog at a brick wall on the street.
Persistent and frequent use of jumping - or any high impact activity - can have a negative effect on a dog's joints, so whether it is either necessary or sensible to keep doing it in 'todays world' is a matter for debate.
Its all very exciting to see a dog scramble over a huge 'jump' - but is it strictly desirable, given modern medical knowledge ?
by ValK on 30 August 2020 - 12:08
i also teach my dogs from very beginning to not leave the yard or certain allocated spot without my permission, thus wasn't worrying if dog without supervision from porch/front yard or other open place will run after another wandering near dog, cat, rabbit or squirrel. albeit with last dog it took more effort and honestly i never was absolutely confident in him and never left him unsupervised for long time.
by Hired Dog on 30 August 2020 - 12:08
In the news this morning here, a dog escaped and attacked two people, injuring one severely and killing an 85 year old woman my wife just told me...can you picture the consequences of this?
I would much rather not have a dog in today's world jump anything rather then ending up in those people shoes.
by ValK on 30 August 2020 - 13:08
hired, what happened is very bad but i'm not really can see connection and correlation between dog's physical capacity and dog's mental state.