Anybody know what's up with this dog or the seller? Has anybody heard of the seller or the dog? - Page 3

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by GSCat on 24 August 2020 - 22:08

Hired Dog--

I think I did not explain very well what I meant when differentiating between good and bad weight.

If a particular dog is supposed to weigh 80 pounds when properly conditioned/exercised/worked and fed, if that same dog doesn't get exercised/worked enough, even if the weight is the same 80 pounds because the dog gets fed less and doesn't gain any weight, more of the weight will be fat because there will be less muscle. Muscle and bone weighs more than fat does, so 80 pounds could be healthy or unhealthy on the same dog.

Back to the photo in the ad, the dog looked overweight to me because he looked fat/flabby.


Apple--

A larger dog might take longer to tire because he/she has more reserves than a smaller dog, or maybe not. How long and well a specific dog can perform his/her assigned task(s) will be a function of training and conditioning, as well as individual abilities/potential.

I've seen bad things that criminals have done to K9 that have/could have caused serious injury/death. When the criminal was on *certain* drugs/combinations, the size/weight of the K9 didn't/wouldn't have made much difference.

My personal preference is GSD for K9, but there are great K9 of different breeds doing awesome jobs.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 August 2020 - 03:08

I didn't comment on how fat or otherwise the dog looks in his photo, 'cos I know a longer coat can be deceptive about what is fat & what is muscle. But I did react to the ad which claimed the dog was 120lb - because the GSD is simply not designed to be that heavy - for any of its intended purposes. People who breed & sell overweight &/or overlarge dogs need to read the Breed Standard.

If a breed is prone to degenerative joint diseases, the last thing any dog needs is to be carrying extra poundage, no matter what the dog is being used to do. There is a fairly large difference between 80 and 120; I'd happily turn a blind eye on a dog that was a little over ideal weight for whatever reason, but 40 lbs ???


by Hired Dog on 25 August 2020 - 06:08

GScat, I am acutely aware what fat and muscle are, coming from over 4 decades of body building and I agree that if you are supposed to be 80 pounds, muscle is better then fat.
The argument I was presenting here is that if you are supposed to be 80 and you are 100 or 120, it makes no difference if its fat or muscle.
There is no question that a bigger dog will have problems lasting into any endeavor it attempts, be it searching or whatever.
As far as your statement of a dog making a small difference when a suspect is under the influence of, for example, PCP, you are correct and I have seen it first hand...that guy felt nothing that night...
As far as conditioning, most people believe that because its a dog, it will be in the best shape ever, the most condition ever, naturally. You train like you fight and you fight like you train, THAT is how you get into the best condition and you keep doing it to stay there. My preference, a dog somewhere between 80-90 pounds with a lot of civil drive and some prey. One that has no problems being handled physically, one that is sensitive to the handler.
If it was a Malinois, 60-70 pounds, the rest remains the same.

by ValK on 25 August 2020 - 21:08

hired, you didn't answer my question about excess of weight. at which point and on what condition weight should be considered excessive?
why, let's say, 120 up to 200lbs weight for caucasian shepherd is a normal but 100~120lbs for for german shepherd with intentionally developed bigger and sturdy bone frame is an excessive weight.

Hundmutter, how much present day dogs in either show, work, sport or pet designation, do resemble Horand and other dogs from that era, for whom standard was written? :)

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 August 2020 - 03:08

ValK, it's not the point how much we have left the Standard, it is how much we should have left the Standard !

 

In the past couple of decades, I have had care of dogs who were 44 kg, when other relatives around were 40kg or under; because they were larger framed than their brothers, not because they were fat (or had particularly enhanced muscle). This I would consider is an acceptable sort of difference - but still the bigger dogs were noticeably less agile than their lighter siblings.   If you want a dog that can jump etc, why handicap it ?


by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 03:08

Valk, what does the standard call for? If it says 13 pounds, that is what it is, if it says 200 pounds, then that is that, but, I would not select a 200 pound dog as much as I would not select a 13 pound dog for my patrol dog.
So, if the dog is supposed to be 13 pounds, being 15 is excessive, end of story. Ronnie Coleman was 300 pounds of muscle and standing next to him was something not easily forgotten, and he was a police officer before he got that big...do you think that because he carried so much muscle, he would be able to go over a 6 foot wall easier?

 


 


by GSCat on 26 August 2020 - 06:08

Hired Dog--

I think we're saying the same thing, just in different ways ;-)

The corrollaries to the train as you fight/fight as you train -- the more you bleed in training (within reason), the less you bleed in battle, and that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

I personally prefer a smaller GSD. Simply having a female instead of male GSD made a huge difference to me, both size-wise and bonding. I never worked with a mal or rott, but observed both breeds do some good stuff.

I hate PCP. Makes for a long night and a lot of paperwork :-(


Hundmutter--

I think we agree. There is a reason for the breed standard being what it is, no matter what breed.

That excess 40 pounds (plus/minus depending on the individual dog) is a third of the total body weight, and half again of the proper weight!  That's obesity in anyone's book. That's why I kidded about the selling price being to recoup all the food the dog had eaten.

That obesity isn't just bad because of degenerative joint diseases, it's also hard on heart, lungs, etc.


by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 06:08

Valk, I just now noticed your remark about CO. I have no idea why that is, I did not write the standard, but, I can also tell you that I would not choose a 120 pound dog as my patrol dog, never mind a 200 pound one.
That breed was created for a whole different purpose, for example, their use in the Black Dolphin Prison in the USSR and in that regard, they do great work....but, what good is a dog that size, I dont care the breed, for long tracks and area searches in tropical heat?
Years a go, I owned a male Fila that matured at around 180 pounds, HUGE is not enough of a word to describe him. He was typical of the breed and was extremely aggressive with strangers and I am sure he would have caused devastating damage to a human, had he gotten a hold of one, but, would he ever work as my patrol dog at that size? NO, he would never.

Everything has its place Valk, a sumo wrestler has his place, in the sumo arena, not as a horse jockey though. A CO and a Fila have their places too, just not as a patrol dog in the back of a car.
One final time, excess weight is excess weight, irregardless of what form it comes from and it does hinder performance in the long run. Also, understand that today, fighting a human is not the primary purpose of a police dog, his nose is, 95% of the time.

by GSCat on 26 August 2020 - 06:08

 

by Hired Dog on 26 August 2020 - 06:08

Also, understand that today, fighting a human is not the primary purpose of a police dog, his nose is, 95% of the time.

Thank you for saying this.

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 August 2020 - 07:08

Yes, thanks, Hired, its a good thing to remember about the breed. Also it bears repeating that different dog breeds were developed for different reasons; the dog's genes are so maleable that we do not have to rely on the equivalent of the development of Sumo wrestlers from among the human population, we can just pick a suitable dog breed for our purpose; too many people seem to think we should change the breed just to fit some perhaps minority purpose, rather than look to a different breed.

GSCat: completely agree with you about those multiple other dangers to the dogs' health & welfare.





 


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