Civil Dogs and Civil Work - Page 6

Blackmal: Agree with Duke The biggest test for charactar temper and courage for GSD is the IPO this the most important part in the today GSD gene pool selection....But it have nothing to do with the real world when you need in a scary situation a great civil dog who maybe one day can save your life.

Me: agree 100% Here is a pedigree that will produce civil/PPD that IPO trainers will punish because of the man focused aggression !

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=2387993&mother=2375856

apple, no, they can't redirect something which is absent in them.
there are big difference in between the dogs, who's working protection in true meaning protection and dogs, who's working out an imitation of protection. different psychological stress and perception of own act by dog.
for dog, acting in playful prey, "aus" associates with short break in bite game, which soon will resume.
for dog, acting in fight to overpower and kill adversary, that's question of surviving.
now tell me, which dog would be more pleasant for judges on sport field and will earn better points, one, who execute command immediately or one, who must be pulled off forcibly?
there one more nuance - complication and hardship in handling and training the dog is proportionally equal to level of aggressiveness and desire to dominate in the dog. finding right balance always have been a hard task.

I definately agree that a dog coming over or under the sleeve is not desirable in sport, as well as a dog that is stubborn and overly dominant, but there is a difference between top sportdog and best dog for your individual female for breeding

as allways, like Valk says finding balance is important

furthermore, I think that a well balanced dog with good level of agression/civil, can be apleasure to work with in sport and will have better trainability in various parts of the program,guarding/out on command etc

I'd be interested in hearing some exercises people who train in sport use to train and strengthen civil aggression. Muzzle work on a passive decoy, long distance apprehension on a passive decoy with a hidden sleeve, apprehension in vehicles or on metal staircases come to mind. Surely there are some people here that title their dogs and also train beyond sport to assess if their dog is capable of real man work. Marcel mentioned something about civil training techniques in people training in KNPV. I would like to hear more about that.

 

Well about that KNPV civil training, it starts very easy most trainers do some civil work without equipment around 9 months old but somtimes I doubt about the scenarios , It will not say every sport dog isn,t suitable for the real civil work
but I think most experience trainers recognise a real good dog or not so good dog.the good dog don,t care about any equipment with or without , I call it the heart and fight from the dog this is what you need and ofcourse courage  and super strong nerves in every situation

The magic word in sport training today is conditioning and I hate conditioning because at the end of the day you will foolish yourself

Most people call biteworkt without equipment civil, but its is not so easy , example a intruder will robbed you from behind in the dark , and your dog will do nothing here we need the real genetics, same as a house robbery wich dog will fight with the intruder today.....who is kicked and beaten you will not learn and see this on the sportfield.

 

Using the two examples you gave where the handler is essentially assaulted, it points out more that civil is better defined as a dog not being equipment fixated and will bite for real because a suit is essentially a large sleeve and dogs get familiar with the smell of a suit and recognize it from training sport exercises on the field. That is a little diiferent than saying civil means a dog will bite someone without equipment. The only way to test that is with a real live bite.

 

The art is recognise a good dog who is suiatble for the work

I think its not only civil bitework but most important is real good scenarios / variation training who come very close the real life without too much CONDITIONING

 

a lot of KNPV civil videos I see are a big fat hidden sleeve that even the dog can see and smell, if you want to know, put a muzzle on a dog , dont let him get comfortable with it and put some pressure on the dog without equipment, big jackets etc

I understand that with certain dogs, a good handler can easily recognize if a dog will bite for real or not. And as already discussed, there can be many different traits motivating a dog to bite for real. And not all those traits come from ideal temperament, but the dog can get the job done, but have some limited utility in being used in other areas because they are a potential liability. Those issues should be easily managed by a competent, responsible handle. I am talking more about dogs that have strong and balanced prey (not extreme) and defense, confidence, are not particularly dominant or lack true social aggression, and are clear headed. I think those dogs are a little trickier to assess if they will fight a man for real. I guess my point is, with such dogs, other than muzzle work, you pretty much have to rely on equipment (suit). Years ago I knew a guy who paid a street drunk $10 to let his dog bite him, but don't think that is a reasonable approach.

if genetic predisposes dogs for real bite, the dogs would be civil and without training. needs in training arise only as a means to control the dog and develop attack technique. question of equipment usage is important at early stage with young dog, to avoid imprinting equipment only oriented bite. upon dog's maturity an equipment and training model becomes secondary.

"Years ago I knew a guy who paid a street drunk $10 to let his dog bite him, but don't think that is a reasonable approach."

yes, it is stupid approach. as i mentioned previously, plenty of dogs can be just bullies. they will bite if sensed fear in the object but never will engage in fight if object shows confidence and willingness to contr-offend.