I think treat training is cruel. - Page 25

So barefangs erbe, motivational training is nothing new. It has been used for thousands of years. Why someone things that marker training is something new is beyond me. As far as your video goes I liked it, but one can almost instantly make a dog to open the drawer by pulling on a toy and command and subsequently encourage the dog with my voice to do so and then potentially playing with another toy which was in the drawer or just voice and pet it if we are at that level of relationship.
. I have taught my dog to look for cash ( detection ) by playing ball with money in it then hiding a ball and then eliminating a ball and just look for cash. It took me 2-3 minutes. What I am saying is that there are many ways to train the dog and clicker training is just one of many. Nothing new about these techniques, methods and principles. I do not mean you, I love what you have done with that dog opening the drawer and I agree with your writings, but I am amazed by the arrogance of some trainers who things they discovered America.
Most I am afraid of a man who read just one book. (hominem unius libri timeo" (meaning "I fear the man of a single book"). Thomas Aquinas)

A lot of the time it seems that Prager doesn't grasp what people are saying in their post, so that's more reason to doubt he is a dog psychic.
Valk, you clearly have a poor understanding of learning in dogs. I don't see any correlation between reinforcement and dominance or rank drive. I'll agree with you, that, due to the SV, and backyard breeders, the majority of GSDs are no longer bred for work, but there are still some very good working lines out there.

BE says:
ANYTHING, virtually anything can be used, from peanutbutter, to bitework, to a crinkly botte, to ball, the environment itself, interacting with the handler or a mere pet (if that's what the highest level of motivation is for a dog).... and you can use negative reinforcement to get true reliability. Just because we have evolved in training does not mean we have weak dogs. Heck, I'm way in over my head with my one year old in protection. I have to be smarter in order to avoid conflict because I KNOW what it looked like in the past. I KNOW how hard he already is. Corrections? Forget about a small prong in bitework. And he's just one year old. If I use compulsion there is just way too much conflict and I'd be unable to handle the dog the way I need to be able to handle him.

So the notion that people use marker training because dogs can no longer handle pressure could not be any further from the truth. It's a way to go around conflict and actually build a GOOD relationship with your dog.

Otherwise, marker training wouldn't be used to train Zoo Animals to perform all kinds of tricks useful in daily life. Like giving shots, taking blood etc.

Great post BE. It what I have been saying for over 20 pages now. 
 

About “activities of daily life”...these are so important, yet not talked about much.

I’ve have (as have millions of other people-nothing new here) used marker training ( call it marker training, or call it something else...no matter, the point is that food is more often than not used for these sessions) to familiarize and take away any discomfort any of my pups might have with:

• a noisy blow-dryer aimed direct at the dog’s wet fur
• a huge vacuum cleaner used in close proximity to vacuum his fur in combo with the rake comb (very useful twice a year!),
• ​walking calmly and relaxed within 1 ft of a moving lawn mower,
• ​dito with a tractor,
• ​fire crackers,
• ​gun shots,
• ​falling metal canisters,
• collapsing cardboard box “tunnels” I have created,as he’s walking though them 
• the sound of breaking pottery or dishes right next to him  
• going through a car-wash tunnel,
• to refrain from barking at other dogs when in the car - and outside of car,
• to ignore screaming shouting  people,
• to run along side my bike within 1 ft., having said bike fall and crash down right next to him on pavement,
• scraping outdoor plastic and metal garbage cans along the pavement with dog in heel, banging garbage can lids or pot lids, within 1 ft of his head,
• jumping up on grated surfaces or slick surfaces,
• cutting his nails,
• putting on his muzzle,
• cleaning his ears...whatever....

Well, you get the picture....

You know what my dog does now , with only 2 sessions of marker training at 8-12 weeks old when I started this....when I blow dry my hair or vacuum the house, or bring in the metal garbage cans from the curb? Or the sound of fire crackers? Or pulling out his muzzle? (As an aside - Muzzle, for training, just in case the vet insists, I’ll be prepared...my dog might not hesitate to bite a vet for more invasive treatment...I’m just not sure at this point. He might have a bit of a civil bent.)  

Well, he runs over to me with all these thing, thinking ‘woohoo great’!!!

Out of every 10 times he does this, I still, with my current new dog now at 1.5yo, do give him a treat very occasionally.  I don’t need to, as they never forget once they learn this operant conditioning...but I do, because I like to see his excitement, and it is fun for us. 

So if this is cruel training...well, shucks. Whip me with a wet noodle.

apple, i would be very thankful if you could direct me to a mentor for educational purpose about dogs training.

also i wouldn't place blame for present weak state of GSD stock solely on SV. last call depends on breeders.
SV just follow the trend to retain paying customer base and sustain itself by monetary means.

The SV tossed the good bloodlines to the curb when they went with the black and red show lines for money. Many good genetics were lost due to them. They watered down schutzhund, which also effected the gene pool. But again, I agree that there are some breeders who know what to breed for and how to select breeding partners. As for a mentor about training dogs, why not start here.

Prager says:

I have taught my dog to look for cash ( detection ) by playing ball with money in it then hiding a ball and then eliminating a ball and just look for cash. It took me 2-3 minutes.

Hang on...I don’t want to read this whole thread again...but didn’t you say that the use FOOD OR TOYS was bad in the thread...as in, “the dog is not working WITH me, but only for a reward, when food or toys are used?” “My praise and a pat on the head are enough?”

Ok, maybe I understood your meaning wrong, and am over simplifying your comment. But I seem to remember it that way.

 

 

Jesse, food or toy can be used as a tool, not a reward per se. everything has to have starting point.

Apple says:

The SV tossed the good bloodlines to the curb when they went with the black and red show lines for money.

True...the Martin bros also wanted to get rid of the sable coloring. Let’s just bottleneck and narrow everything even more...heck, lets just make a dog we can make a legal patent on.

ADD: lets throw some genetic engineering in the mix to patent..LOL.

Sorry, out of place and factious 🤭

Valk says:
Jesse, food or toy can be used as a tool, not a reward per se. everything has to have starting point.

Valk-
Maybe as a....um, ....reinforcement?....to shape a behavior and increase the chance the dog will repeat said behavior? 

Exactly, Valk, that is what some of us have been saying all along!

Yes, the Martin brothers and their cohorts rejected sables as being a different type and led to a period when sables were discarded. They were totally wrong. German show judges then and now don't like sables. But color has nothing to do with character amongst the working lines except by accident. Fear is a highly heritable trait and the Martin brothers' concentration on Canto/Uran altered the capabilities of the GSD compared to what has been done on the working side. That is not to say all the working lines are bred for real work.