Old school German Shepherds - Page 22

joanro, i agree with you. better to see once than hear hundred times. sadly even old videos, which can be found, 
mainly entertaining, showing dogs performance of learned tasks, which shows skill of those who teached the dog 
but not the dog itself. even today, with abundance and simplicity of use video recording gadgets, dog's breeders/owners 
avoid to record and make public their dog's test for even few basic temperamental aspects.

 

Hundmutter, i'm not as diverse and educated about dogs as you are, but i strongly believe - temperament of dog is 
inborn thing, regardless it is genetically dictated or something else. good, strong pair produce litter in which good, 
strong offspring prevailing. vice versa with weak pair. Centurian is correct saying - by environment / training you can 
improve character/behavior of dog for particular templates, scenarios but for that dog it wouldn't hold, if unfamiliar 
situation/circumstance arise. that is the case, when you need dog with high intelligence, ability for independent thinking 
and making correct logical and efficient decision. for such you cannot teach if dogs isn't predisposed by inborn abilities 
and in all its actions rely on handler's directions, commands, behavior, etc.

in regard of dogs from 30's-40's, i didn't know them but i remembering comparison by my mentor 
(he was involved back then) to present days. he told that dogs did become better. 
present days reference to 70's-80'.

Valk, very well said. Thank you for that.

Valk, I like to test my dogs. Here is a two year old female, zero foundation work in protection, testing her for natural aggression. The camera guy did not have any equipment for bite work, so after this display, I had him step up on the porch to be safer. I only had a fursaver and light cotton lead on the dog. She has never had ant agitation done before this, and he was not even agitating her. She has natural aggression, but safe in public, not a kid's dog. Testing, not training in these two......

https://www.dropbox.com/s/680zp4ijqxldsto/winnie%20.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/25krb3sody6e4zf/winnie%20dec%2022%2C%2017.MOV?dl=0

This one is a nine month old male, testing on slick noisy surface with no preparation, testing for nerves on new, unfamiliar objects....https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gl7rletafyp65a/Skeeter%209%20mo.%20at%20farm%20store.mov?dl=0

 

Same male, almost three year old, testing for natural aggression, he had zero foundation and no bite work ever...first time to bite anything, no sleeve even.....https://www.dropbox.com/s/09ju7k62x9oxnys/Skeeter%20first%20time%20on%20suit%2C%20first%20time%20with%20a%20decoy.mp4?dl=0  this dog does not know the decoy, nor the safety guy. Decoy is learning, but very game and tries his best.https://www.dropbox.com/s/6u9vwe2fwucl5bj/skeeter%20first%20time%20bite.mp4?dl=0

 

This is a 14 month old female, ( future mother to female is the first video top of post) testing, not training...https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6l9gussfzl44e5/olivia%20testing%20at%20farm%20store.mov?dl=0

Here is a video I took on Christmas of our young male gsd playing with a child he just met. The child is 5 yrs old and at the time, our male gsd was 5 months old. He is now 9 months old and still behaves well around children.

Joan this is not in reference to the dogs in the videos that you recently posted ,, But your videos did make me think about this topic more ;
So getting back to temperament ol' school vs new school ..... and the changing mentality of the GS I write this :
I am amazed how many professional dog people and very very very experienced dog people cannot recognize unsound temperament and this at times is evident to me reading through the years posts on the PDB. I will give some examples : one time there was posts regarding handler aggression . Let me say this to you all ... any GS that is so high in aggression t hat will direct that aggression onto it's handler is an unsound dog ! This is not a subjective comment although a good number of people will argue the point. .But because you believe something is untrue does not change what the truth is. I can get into the neurological aspects of that but , pass . Either believe what I write of go figure it out with those kinds of dogs for yourself.

Any dog that is so high in aggression , so domineering , and independent , that it will not take the guidance of a human , nor be controlled by a human , is unequivocally an unsound dog . Amazing.. how many people do not recognize or acknowledge this !! These are but a few illustrations for the novice dog person.

The overall message when it comes to mentality in discussing of the GS : is that to see if the menatlity thas changed over time iwe need to look at temperament . Because that is genetically neurologically [ meaning within the brain ] based. The brain controls behavior. I mentioned that the behavior is the expression of temeperament, what the dog is in it's thinking  . For example a dog fearfully over reacting to environmental stimuli all the time and bites is deemed an unsound fear biter. The behavior in the context reveals the temperament . For novices reading .. this is why I talk about 'Mentality ' of the GS. That being stated , we have to look at is not just at the behavior of the dog . But equally as important to look at in the dog and  to understand the dog , i.e  menatlity and temperament , is the quality and the quantity of behavior expressed by the dog.  For example , aggression is is not abnormalin and of itself - but it is the kind /type and quantity determines in truth if it is anbormal or not ! Such as a dog aggressing when it is not threatened. Or a dog aggressing way over the amount needed for a particular stimulation. How can I lkken this : A person beatring the hell put of someone becuse they stepped on your foot by accident. That is an unstable person . So , why is it so hard to understand dogs. Have you seen people change ovdr ime , rhetorically seaking ??  it is not hard to compare and congtrtast. The only feature is that you have to be around ghrough the decades to have seen the difference in dogs. . So , I don't expect people starting out to notice but the pros and experienced people that have been around for decades handling htousands of GSs,  , hmmm , how can you not have noticed ?? 

So , in this light over the course of time , in this respect , I now ask ? do wee see a difference on the GS of former years compare to today .... And I say , as I have written , yes we do ... drastically .

Centurion, yes we see a difference in some gsd today compared to ten years ago.

We also see a difference, today from five years ago, how rented cargo vans are used. Does that mean the vans are at fault, or that the manufacturers are at fault for the deployment of vans to caused death and mayhem ?

No. It is the fault of the operator same as its the fault of the handler most times, and the fault of people selecting unsound dogs for breeding....none of this means the whole fleet of cargo vans is going to become a weapon of mass murder. Same that bad people on the other end of the leash means the whole breed is going to become handler aggressive.

I know of a bad k9 handler who got angry at his dog during training for not wanting to enter a body of water to chase the decoy...so he threw the dog into the water and stood on it. The dog, fighting for it's life, bit the 'handler's' leg, whereupon the guy pulled his gun and shot and killed the dog "for biting him".....he claimed the dog was 'handler aggressive'.
That may be an extreme example, but I believe, from listening and witnessing many 'handlers' at sch clubs etc., who declare their dog is handler aggressive, that in fact the dog is only defending itself from an abusive 'handler'. I think abusive handlers causing dogs to defend themselves is much more common than true handler aggression for no reason.

BTW, when I saw all I needed to from my young female showing aggression towards the 'intruder' ( as she perceived the decoy to be) I put her into a down...her obedience is impeccable, even while she was 'fired up'..biddability is imperative. Without it dogs with natural aggression are dangerous.

Let me say this to you all ... any GS that is so high in aggression t hat will direct that aggression onto it's handler is an unsound dog !

Nope, don't agree with above.

 

THIS! >  Joan:
I believe, from listening and witnessing many 'handlers' at sch clubs etc., who declare their dog is handler aggressive, that in fact the dog is only defending itself from an abusive 'handler'. I think abusive handlers causing dogs to defend themselves is much more common than true handler aggression for no reason.

Star would bite the guy who used to be the trainer at my club, and draw blood, when he gave her a hard correction with the prong. I think he damn well deserved it. She never did it with anyone else. This is a dog I can trust with kids and other dogs, even my former room-mate's 10 lb. chiweenie.

Yes, she has a stubborn streak. Yes, I DO used corrections on her. But this guy was very heavy-handed and rarely balanced the corrections with any praise.

And I'm not saying there aren't any truly handler aggressive dogs out there. I've yet to see one in person, though.

Sunny, lol. When if first saw topo ur post,I thought you were directing your 'disagree, this...' To my post.
It was unclear what you disagreed with,I was ready to respond to you based on not seeing at first, what you meant. But after reading, I understood. The club trainer does not qualify to be called Star's'handler'...he was just a guy holding her leash dishing out inappropriate correction. Her handler is you, a family member or some else who is her REGULAR handler.....not the 'club trainer' picking up her leash.

LOL! Sorry I didn't word it more clearly. Brain was not fully caffeinated yet.

Three things come to mind. The importance of laying a foundation based on positive reinforcement and using the least amount of intensity in a correction that is still effective. Corrections are not meant to cause pain, but rather to shock the dog and get his attention. Also, the best description I have heard of old school GSDs is that they are mistrustful of strangers and good with the family and children.