What causes this working difference? - Page 11

Duke,
You said, "good civil dogs are born that way and show it early on..." Can you give some examples of the behavior you are referring to and some of the different ages you first observed these signs of civil drive?

Valk,
It is not about fame, coolness or money. It is about numerous dogs who had a reputation for being strong dogs in different ways making a genetic contribution.

ok. you have the dog, who for generations excel in patrol dog role. thus there are good genetics, prevailing toward such use.
at same time another dog for generations proven to be perfect herding (tracking, S&R, guide) dog. thus again excellent genetics.
now if you mate them, what excellent trait do you expect to have in offspring of such matting?

different ages you first observed these signs of civil drive

although addressed not to me, here you can see pup at age 4~5 weeks, who shows correct response.
for those who don't understand russian - lady behind the camera sounds like she is vet and just did to that boy puppy-shot vaccine.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt89S1aba-Y

you can indeed see it in the puppytime and up, vocal forward reaction on, for the pups, strange things/people approaching, when older, 3 or 4 months, my best pups, when walking outside at dark and someone or something approaches, but unseen, again forward reaction combined with neckhair going up/barking, when more older, lack of equipment focus, spitting out sleeve after winning etc etc, there are tons of signs for who understands, 

The problem is that the meaning of the behaviors are subjective. I don't like to see a pup hackling, but realize it can mean the dog is excited and not always fearful, but as an adaptive response its purpose is generally to make the animal look bigger because it feels threatened. A young pup barking at people approaching can go either way as an adult. What is the threat of people approaching? I have seen the video of the pup Valk posted and see it as a dog with inappropriate aggression that lacks confidence and is compensating with aggression. The dog might make a good guard/perimeter dog, but not a dog I would want. I would prefer to see confidence at that age.
Valk,
The GSD was developed as a herding breed. As the need for herding declined, the breed was selectively bred as a military and police dog. The only herding lines behind my dog are very early in the breed. Closer up, his paternal grandsire came from the Slovak Police breeding center as a pup and returned there and was bred to extensively for producing dogs for the police and sport. So his pedigree is not a hodge podge/mixture of genetics focused on selecting for SAR, herding, point dogs, etc.

Apple, if a dog comes from breeding of slovak, or whatever country police breeding program, doesnot mean its good dog, the simple fact that the dog was sold, means it was not good enough for the police to keep to begin with, I was contacted yesterday by a breeder who has ofspring of that dog and they will bite nothing else than a sleeve, will make great sportdogs

many police breedingprograms have a 30% successrate at best, and I know IPO3 dogs that are policedog for drugdetection only, so are never used for any biting action on the street

the problem is that all your comments are identical to what I hear from IPO sport people, unfortunately, they are not the one working on the street or supplying to the police, so to ask info about that, maybe they are not the most reliable source

 

The breeder who bought the pup from the Slovak Police is originally from there and has friends in the program. Also, it doesn't mean he is not a good dog. As you know, who the dog is bred to is a factor. My dog has never seen a sleeve and the first time he was exposed to the suit, he bit the bicep and above the back of the knee without any stimulation, simply the presence of the decoy. As I mentioned before, Suttle is not an IPO sport person and the majority of dogs he supplies go to the police and military and they are not sharp, traditionally aggressive dogs and he has numerous contracts.
So what do you think of the pup in Valk's video?

Duke, those things you stated are absolutely the things I’m looking for when picking pup( which is always for LE if pup is for me); you can see the civil pup at young age if the the litter/pup has the genetics. I say the genetics because there are civil dogs that are civil out of fear/weakness....but when assessing a litter of strong genetics either you can recognize the civil pup or potentially civil pup.

Different people look for different things when assessing pups as potential patrol dogs. Regarding social skills, some prefer pups who show a generally open temperament and being approachable by unknown people and like seeing the pup wanting to approach strangers, but not displaying aggression. If you have a pup around eight months of age that looks to be very civil (a definition that means different things to different people) you are likely to have control issues with such a dog at maturity. This way of assessing pups is valid and is pretty much the opposite of what Duke and Gustav prefer to see. My concern about seeing pups showing aggression toward unfamiliar people has to do with Gustav's comments that dogs can be "civil" out of fear/weakness.

this oversocial, non civil desire, is resulting in many fails already on the street right now, more and more LE vendors and departments are desperately looking for more civil and less overly social dogs,but I guess you will know better , FYI Duke and Gustav work policedogs LOL

 

I think it is more complex. Less social dogs does not always mean the dog has courage and social dogs don't necessarily lack courage.