Question for breeders on Mange - Page 3

Rose, maybe they should think about not breeding those bitches again.  Breeding bitches that are known to have produced more than one case of generalized demodex is probably why there are more than the expected number of GSD's who have this condition. Some localized cases will turn into generalized, that is what the vets should be warning about, not just arbitrarily telling anyone with a GSD with one little spot of mange to spay her. Telling an owner to neuter a male with demodex is even dumber; the mites and the innabiltiy to fight them comes from the dam.

Bottom line - if you want to eliminate demodex in this breed there are 2 very simple ways you can do that - do not breed again any bitch that has produced more than one puppy with generalized demodex, do not breed any bitch that has been diagnosed with generalized demodex. Just like HD, EPI, vWD, etc folks, you just cannot get rid of any of this bad stuff by continuing to breed dogs that are carrying those genes no matter how glorious the puppies. The decision is up to you breeders.

Chloe just went through a bout of immune suppression after whelping her pups and I freaked and took her right to the vet as her hair was thinning out so badly.  Had her tested for mange - came back negative.  We have an awesome vet - we talked about diet and also since living in south Florida she said August is a terrible month for all breeds and that she had seen countless cases of allergy type problems in the past 2 weeks.  We took all our dogs off Canidae and switched them back to Royal Canin (along with RAW which we used with both dry kibbles) and saw an immediate change in coat fullness and luster and a complete turn around in the ear redness (yeast) She did also add Mometamax drops for her ears.  At this point I am questioning if something happened in the last several batches of Canidae (yeast related).

We also talked about supplementing with a high quality Aloe Vera and Collodial Silver for immune system strength.  I have used Collodial Silver for 18 years with my cats and have had healthy disease free cats (indoor/outdoor) who are 18 years old this year.  If a stray comes around the area that appears sickly I start dosing them for a few days as a preventative to picking up any viral/bacterial infections.  See http://www.herbalremedies.com/readmorabcol.html#4 for a good description on Collodial Silver.  The issue with silver is that it was abundant as a trace mineral in our soils but over the last several decades has disappeared due to overuse of chemicals and synthetic fertilizers so we do not get the trace mineral in our fruits and vegetables anymore. 

Blitzen, that is kind of what I was hinting at.

Clewsk's, I know that any of my dogs that have whelped always lost coat after the whelping. But I had also heared about yeast being an issue with many things like demodex (not the cause but a good feeding ground) and earinfections. Interesting. But I can't find the article I read many months ago on it. Interesting view on the collodial silver. Thansk for the link.

Ok I will try to make this short and sweet. About 13 years ago I had 3 dogs, all different lines a one year old (this is approximates in years) a 3 month and a 6 month old pups. They all came down with what was diagnosed as demodex. I had to do this bath/wash thing and I can't remember if it was considered generalized or local. I do remember it on their face. Well at training I mentioned it to our helper. She had Rotts at the time and said well you won't convince me it isn't catchy, it went thru my whole kennel! Hmmmm! The pups were never bred one met with a fatal accident a 3 years old the other was dysplastic. I did use the male a couple times and no pups showed up with demodex.

clewsk9s I have used Collodial Silver on myself, family and dogs. It is great stuff!

Demodex is NOT the issue with any of these dogs.  As it was already mentioned all dogs have these mites.  The problem is a poor (or comprimised) immune system which can be in herited from either parent (just like any other weakness or health problem).  IMO you must look at the big picture.  If one puppy from a litter showed localized demodex but it showed up after a time of stress/poor care/poor diet/her first heat/etc.... yet the other pups all showed nice strong immune systems then I would not be too concerned.  If one pup showed up with localized demodex but the other pups had various problems that would also imply a poor immune system then I would be more concerned. 

Allergies are another problem that show a weakened immune system.  Not saying any dog who has a relative with demodex or allergies shouldnt be bred... but you must look at the big picture and try to breed dogs with stronger immune systems and better overall health.

I also cringe when I see how people treat pups with demodex.  The immune system is comprimised so they give them tons of chemicals, vaccinations, wormers, medications, stress the puppy out by doing horrid dips, vet visits, and keep feeding the same crappy diet.  It really makes no sense.  The best treatment for localized demodex is a good healthy natural diet, stop all chemicals and other immune compriming things, maybe some supplements to help boost the immune system. 

JMO of course

Valerie

Goose - you're welcome.  I knew to expect some changes in her but really wanted to rule out demodex and nip any problems in the bud. 

Trailrider - that it is!  Started out using it for Epstein Barr virus and found a plethura of advantages to it.  Successful in treating ear infections in children too!  Many nieces/nephews were able to control ear infections with Silver when Amoxicillian just made them worse, adding thrush and other immune system dysfunction to boot.

My husband and I have worked in Horticulture for the past 20+ years and have seen the serious decline in the soils from year to year.  Really worked hard to move away from chemicals and go all natural which was amazing to see.  Actually saw dead soils become ecologically balanced again with all the little critters including earth worms and lady bugs returning to the food chain which ultimately reduced the pest problems.  We actually buy Lady Bugs from California and release them now.  I also found that fertilizer labels are very similar to vitamin labels except very lacking in micronutrients, etc.  Love to discuss with you in more detail sometime:  clews-k9s@hotmail.com

I seems to me that immune suppression is a widespread issue with humans, animals, plants and in general our environment.  I guess we should really all stop breeding

Trailrider, are you sure your dogs didn't have sarcoptic mange, scabies? Did they itch a lot and did you itch too? I had that go through my entire kennel brought in by a dog I rescued. It was a mess. I promise you that generalized demodex is not contagious one dog to the other, every dog has these mites on it's body at any given time. I think it might be possible for multiple dogs in the same family to have breaks downs in their immune systems at the same time and develop lesions caused by demodex.  Were your dogs ill or otherwise stressed before they developed the lesions? I'm pretty sure you'd remember if those dogs had generalized demodex. They would have lost a lot of hair in many places and probably would have needed antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections. Those bacterial infections could have caused smelly skin, scratching, zits and oozing sores...really nasty business. 

Valerie is exactly right, it is not about the mites, it's about the immune system's being compromised and not functioning as it should to prevent the mites from causing damage. Modern medicine is great and veterinary medicine has certainly come a long way.  25, 30 years ago, before the use of drugs like ivermectin, generalized demodex was almost impossible to cure and most dogs that had it were eventually put down so they were never bred. Now that it's a curable/controlable disease for the most part, owners are treating these dogs and then using them for breeding which is not the greatest idea. Dogs with compromised immune systems are not healthy and can develop tons of other problems as they age. Allergies, lupus, leukemia, maybe DM to name just a few. They should never be used for breeding.

BTW we humans have our own version of demodectic mites on our own bodies. Ooooooooo!!!

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_demodectic_mange.html

If you google-  demodectic mange dogs- you will find a lot of good information on this condition.

Contemporary Studies
Laboratory tests in 1988 by Larry C. Ford, M.D., UCLA School of Medicine, and other researchers showed that destructive bacteria, virus and fungus organisms are killed within minutes of contact with simple metallic silver. While studying regeneration of limbs, spinal cords and organs in the late 1970s, Robert O. Becker, M.D., author of The Body Electric, discovered that silver ions promote bone growth and kill surrounding bacteria he recognized a correlation between low silver levels and sickness. He said silver deficiency was responsible for the improper functioning of the immune system.    From: http://www.herbalremedies.com/readmorabcol.html

I believe treating symptoms is a futile attempt and we must delve into treating root causes - at this point a very high percentage of living entities have immune system problems of one sort or another.  Allergies are an immune system dysfunction - I ask if we should do like China and start sterilizing across the board?

I am hoping that DNA profiling will help us all to chose and breed top notch healthy dogs.  I do agree that weaknesses in parents are genetically passed on to their progeny but the same can happen to a perfectly healthy dog who has been introduced to environmental toxins, ie; WTC, Gulf War syndrome, etc.  All disease is initially a metobolic imbalance where naturally occuring organisms are allowed to flourish out of control, ie: yeast, etc.  My immune system sucks due to environmental toxins, ie: nuclear incident in 81, landscape chemical applications that were later pulled from the market, etc. but I don't think anyone should tell me not to have children???  Before we go that far we have to ask where we draw the line.

Blitzen, thanks for reminding me about the mites we have-yuk, yuk, yuk! I'm probably a factory production line!

I wish that we could just dial up a DNA score to know what we're buying - but still something else would inevitably come up.

 Clewsk9's. I think most of those mites are living in the follicles of your eyelashes . Yikes!!