I think treat training is cruel. - Page 22

video still there, anyone can go few pages back and re-watch it.
even at very beginning of video, dog do shows that there are understanding on his part what he is asked to do. and yet, when he tries to do this, was cut short in his action by clicker and received reward, instead of been allowed to continue.
frankly i never like when i see emphasis only on mechanic automation during the work with dog. sure, dogs aren't as smart as human but still intelligent enough to communicate and do have capacity to figure out by itself - what does handlers want from them. but again, in video the channel of communication to dog from handler is absent and replaced exclusively "click - reward" template. no any signs of attempt to stimulate dog's potential to work by own brain. work with dogs is two way road on which both parties must works into understanding each other, particularly when comes to teaching advanced (merged set of actions on single command) act. in video are simple robotization of execution.

They live in a time warp of training knowledge and a time warp in pining after a supposed long-lost dog type.

please spare me of that BS. on few occasions i already told - in dog's world a new not necessarily mean to be better. in most cases its just necessity, because type of new dogs very rarely capable to handle what was norm for their ancestors.

Oh, and one more thing. Just because someone chooses to clicker or marker train, doesn't mean they have a weak dog. Sometimes it's the best way to go around unnecessary conflicts with your dog. Sure, I could totally train a forced retrieve, but why damage the relationship and use outdated methods when I can shape a retrieve in its entirety and if I want a nice competition retrieve I can tighten it up with some nepopo and by giving them choices without damaging the relationship?

Train smarter, not harder.

ValK

BECAUSE HE KNOWS WHAT A RETRIEVE IS! HE KNOWS RELATED BEHAVIORS! HE KNOWS HOW TO LEARN AND HOW TO OFFER!

He learned how to pick up items from various positions. All I have to do is to point at something and he'll offer  to take it into his mouth. He has the understanding to pick something up but not how to open the drawer. I can shape an entirely new behavior out of behaviors that he already knows or that are related to what he already knows. It's not rocket science! You should learn it yourself. It's fun.


 

Proven by published reports based on the experimental model using appropriate methodology. That is very different than Prager saying a dog is not working for the handler because the handler uses food and toys. His is just an opinion. The principles are relatively simple, but how many trainers are really good at applying them?  For example, it is clear to me that Valk doesn't get some of these basic principles.

Joan-

No one can deny your knowledge. You have single-handedly trained more animals, different animals, shown them in arenas all over the country, things that none of us can ever dream of doing. And, on top of it, you have a quick and sharp wit.

I did not know the term Premack Principle. But, upon reading it, thanks to your post, I now know what it means, and should anyone ever mention it again, I will know know, and can follow them. There will be less chance of miscommunication....and that, is a good thing.

I feel there is a movement going on, I’ll call it a reverse knowledge-gathering movement...for lack of a better term. 

Maybe we are all over flooded with info via the endless internet, and so called fake-news, secret  agendas,  (no matter what side we are on) and subconsciously, we, as a world wide species, have come to the point, of closing off....protecting what we know has worked for us.

None of my posts are meant as an insult to anyone. But when things are twisted, and generalized so far...that some comments border on showing an unknowing-ness of certain ways of training...and not even being interested in learning, well, what else can I say. And I don’t mean you Joan.

Duke-

You consistantly show us videos that you make. I did not mean you. I have always said openly I like how you and your group of breeders train. Actually very much!

Duke says:
Jesse, with that statement you assume, you are 100% correct and other people are not, bold statement to make, furthermore, on a forum, you will get different opinions and points of view, that is normal, its called discussion, maybe you prefer a place where one person can tell everybody how it is, no discussion possible you ask for vids, here is one I trained and titled from nothing to ipo 3 several years back,

No sir Duke....I do not claim to be 100% correct all the time. For example, I did make a slight mistake on page whatever, and can’t go back to correct it. 

I like discussions...but this has ceased to be a discussion.

I can not have a discussion with someone that does not know what I am saying. How do I know they don’t know what I am saying? Because their response is not appropriate to the subject I am discussing. That’s how I know we are on different pages of knowledge. When it comes to Marker Training and using food...which is the ONLY thing I was advocating for in this whole thread, and only get weird non-fitting comments from some, then I can only assume the persons  do not know this system.

 

ADD: Which is fine if they dont know it well, but dont dis it to the point of being silly.

 

 

Jesse, the op of this thread, who I think you have become utterly frustrated with,is gong to be contrary no matter what you say. Could be lack of knowledge or just being someone who thinks they know more than any one else in the world...your guess.

As for needing everyone to be one the same page per terminology...well that's what goo gle is good for.
I never heard of premick or whatever it's called, either. One of the few times I resorted to goo gle.

You will be old a grey and forget what the conversation was about before you ever get the op to agree with you...he won't agree with you nor me, nor Duke, nor anyone who has not agreed with him. That is just his nature.

Best to spend time talking to reasonable persons on here, and there are plenty of us....so dissing pdb based on his unbending retoric is sad.

Valk says;
...no any signs of attempt to stimulate dog's potential to work by own brain...

Yes, BE’s dog learns it that quickly...because, he has learned how to learn...through the clicker.

And that, as I said before, is one of the most important things about marker training. You are teaching your dog to learn how to learn, in this system.

Once you start, you never have to start at stage one again. The dog knows the drill, no matter what new behaviors you are tying to teach. The dog will show you new behaviors, on his own...from his own brain....until he has figured out, on his own, what you want. I can just sit down, and let my dog figure it out...clicking, or marking via voice, every time he gets close to what I want him to do (or, I can also lure him there, which is also used). And most important, it is fun for both.

Yes, there are other ways to do it. But I will bet you donuts to dollars that marker training is quicker in some (maybe many) cases.

Also Valk-

You asked me a few pages ago, why your 10 mo old will fight yo and not comply anymore during training. I don’t want to go back to find you original post because I might lose my editing window... 

Anyway...I did write a longish post to you about that.

I still have it on my hard drive...but I decided not to post it.

No matter what I say or write about your issue, will most likely be misconstrued and not taken seriously, not necessarily by you...I don’t know about that...but others too. There is for sure nothing that you don’t know about training your way....or your clubs way. So surely you don’t need my advice about it, in the way I train. Too bad, because it might have helped other silent readers.

 

ADD: If you want to, you can always pm me for that post I wrote, Valk, if nothing else, as food for thought. But again, surely it is nothing you don’t already know.

Joan says:

Best to spend time talking to reasonable persons on here, and there are plenty of us....so dissing pdb based on his unbending retoric is sad.

Point well taken.
There are not that many of us on here posting anymore (I wonder why?)

So that makes it a bit tough. And...sometimes these persons have good points too...just not about marker training. Not because of another opinion...but because it is not something they have ever delved into (according to their remarks).
But, I will remember your point.

Some interesting reads.  I especially like BE's part about, "The best way to get a relationship with your dog, is to actually spend time with them." 

Jesse, you wrote about someone expressing regrets from their past training. I certainly can relate to that. Not just the distant past, but also immediately after training. For my own good, I always apologized when we got back to the vehicle. Not so I could justify it, I had no doubt it was justified or it would never have happened. I apologized for my inability to explain to him what I needed in a manner that would not have subjected him to it in the first place.