Sportism - Page 19

@GSDFan - another nice vid - thanks.
Hope you used those big pipes behind you at some stage for scenarios - they look perfect.

@vk4 - I have posted vids of my dogs - working in the sea on hidden equipment, working on slippery floors with hidden equipment, ignoring shot gun fire on the approach and on the bite, muzzle work at distance and over obstacle, maintaining there bite on hidden leg sleeves, even when they were being blasted by 20 kilos of CO 2, hosed with water etc etc. My training shows variation of location/decoy/stressers etc.

Then there is you - playing with the bulkiest of fat suits, your dog is simply playing tug, I told you that months ago. I find it incredible you can argue which drive a dog is or isn't in, when you don't have the were with all to get your dog out of PLAY drive lol. Your training is completely direction less - not civil and not sport.

You then post a vid of an old cur hound - barking at one of your mates in a public toilet - telling Hans this is what defence looks like lol. Afraid not - it just looks like a couple of dodgy guys lurking around in the toilet with an old cur - in fact maybe that vid derived the term - dogging.

Well done Pete - see you have achieved something in the dog  ing world.

Regards
Gee

 

gsdfan:"If I touch the dogs head and he comes off the bite to transfer, that means his threshold is so low he can't take a touch much less a stick, or any type of pressure or distraction. That dog is so easily run-able it's pathetic. "

Hans :Pathetic? Not so fast. even though you may be right in some instances I have seen way too many dogs dismissed for such thinking . In most cases dog letting go in presence of a handler is a matter of training and sometimes maturing. If the dog is submissive to the handler then that does not mean that the dog is weak. It may be also immature or training got ahead of the dogs maturing.
Also novice and/or immature dog in defense drive may let go when the handler the dog respects comes near. That can be easily trained out or it will go away by itself as the dog matures and it has nothing to do with weakness.

gsdfan:"A dog who can remain in prey the longest or transition to prey easily and release stress at every opportunity will be able to handle great amounts of pressure, thus able to remain on the bite full and hard and out clean when commanded."

Wow. that is how we get weak dogs. Prey does not generate resilience to pressure. In prey basically there is no pressure. So how does lack of pressure allow him to learn to handle it. Now yes if I put the dog into defense and see that it is getting too much for him then I promptly reward him by letting him win - where the decoy runs away - dog wins. However in my opinion the dog's resiliency is build by slow increments of pressure while in defense with the care by trainer making sure that the dog always wins. Dog "remaining in prey" does not build resilience to defense. How would that work. In prey the dog does not see any pressure so how can he learn to be resilient to it. . It is like I will teach you not to be scared of water by pulling you out of water. No, small increments from shallow to more deep will take away such fear. However sport and sportism is constantly putting dogs into defensive situation in prey drive. That teaches the dog to not to see or comprehend the danger. It also does not teach the dog how to deal with it when he recognize it as such. In that situation there the dog is under sustained negative pressure, the dog is then not capable to channel into prey as he was trained and will fold it like a cheep tent. Where the dog which learned by increment training to deal with high pressure of negative challenge is them better equipped to stay in prolonged negative fight.
JMO :)
Prager Hans

gsd fan:
"Some dogs who have come to me started in defense, getting them to transition to prey took great effort and in some cases nearly impossible for any duration. As a dogs regular training decoy, I am the dogs sparring partner ( I am his "bait dog") preparing him for his fight, he should not see me as an adversary and be so insecure about his safety to the point I can't touch his head while he's on the bite without him trying to transfer. A dog like that is useless for anything except PPD."

Hans:
Why the dog who was trained in defense should not see you as an adversary? Because you said so? You are his "bait dog" How does he know that. You emailed him a memo? Or because your superior training says so? It is amazing into what pains sportists go to show that the dog which was trained in different way than they do, is lost cause. They even destroy the dog to proof their point. Putting round peg into square hole is what this is. Personally if I see dog being prey or trained in prey I go along with it and build him up with prey into what I want him to be. I read and go by what he is "telling me " what needs to be done . And same way when I see "defensive" dog I again go along with him or her and build the dog with different approach rather then try to brake the dog's personality over a knee, to fit my cookie cutter approach which destroys the dog . That is poor training approach of close minded trainer.

Prey and defense are different side of the same coin. Some dogs are genetically or by former training more prey and some more defense. To force one or the other if it does not fit the dog's makeup is not how the dog should be trained or treated yet this disrespect of the dog is done so all the time and then the dog is dismissed as inferior. POS - get a new dog. No who is inferior in this case is the trainer.
Prager Hans

when the dog is on the bite and the decoy touches the dogs head (not the handler!?...never said handler).

I am the dogs REGULAR training decoy, his sparring partner, the bait dog (think about the purpose of the bait dog...the dog is built up, dominates and wins) he then meets the adversary when brought to new decoys/fields.  So after 10-15 training sessions I SHOULD go from new (understandably adversarial decoy) to "regular" training decoy.  After several sessions of letting him win and dominate...the dog should not still see me as an adversary if he is going to progress, but a defense started dog usually (but not always) does.  Now I admit I am talking about progressing towards PSA titles (which for you "real dog folks" should be easy right?).  Don't get me wrong there are some very nice dogs who will succeed in spite of their past training.

Yea he gets a memo SMH...maybe if u had a skilled training decoy to work with that you didnt have to tell what to do constantly you'd understand.

Happy training, regards

@GSDfan

Could you clarify why a dog that wants to transfer the bite to your hand for petting its head and not holding the bite....is a pathetic runner?. I'm not sure if I understood this correctly. If you just started work with the dog then you are an adversary mocking the dog by petting his head. For points yes bad, but thats a challenge in the dogs mind and it rose to occasion, how do you correlate that to a pathetic runner, maybe sports terminology im missing?

GSDfan:

Defense causes stress, stress compounds and builds until the threshold is crossed and the dog comes off the bite. Coming off the bite at any level is very undesirable (regarless if he goes back on).
 

Me: Coming off the bite should be desirable when the dog is no longer in an adventages fighting position. Coming off the bite when a weapon is drawn or the dog just got stabbed is desireable. Sitting comfortable in prey can be very dangerous for the dog. In dog fights, they hold bite until position is no longer advantageous then repositioning they rebite, its natural to the dog to do so. To say threshold reached may be discounting the dogs natural fighting instinct for a specific sport/leo goal.








 

I see quite a few dogs that can take a load of pressure in prey on the bite, but are afraid for everything when no prey triggers around, so prey is nice as long as it is backed up by courage and civil agression

so these crappers dont come of the bite, is that a good thing than ?

 I am sorry I ralized my error after i typed and I have thought that I have deleted the top post. I am sorry. You were indeed talking  decoy and not handler. 

Prager: "Prey does not generate resilience to pressure. In prey basically there is no pressure. So how does lack of pressure allow him to learn to handle it."

Guess, you haven´t trained talented dogs for quite some time, your kind of view about drives sounds kind of weird...
There are major differences between a IPO1/ZVV1 dog rushed through the club trial, and a IPO3/ZVV3 dog that trialed at different locations, with different helpers, with a lot of pressure.

Even a wolf does have a lot of prey drive ( hunting ), wolf puppies do train their prey drive by playing with / chasing each other, during the same time they train and strengthen their grip -

Mother Nature invented the prey drive, not IPO people -

and Mother Nature invented defense, aggression, and fighting drive, too. A smart trainer will make use of ALL drives, because at the end the dog will become much more stable. Only a fool will suppress inborn traits.

Prager: "Some dogs are genetically or by former training more prey and some more defense. To force one or the other if it does not fit the dog's makeup is not how the dog should be trained or treated yet this disrespect of the dog is done so all the time and then the dog is dismissed as inferior."

So why do you ( try to ) start a puppy that clearly shows a lot of prey drive "civil", trying to suppress its unborn prey drive?
Why do you ( try to ) deny the pup the possibility to learn how to grip, how to hold, how to feel comfortable, how to ( re ) act to your own goals accordingly?

I love civil dogs, I started 3 of my own males "civil", because when they were young they already showed more defense/aggression than prey, but I made use of ALL drives, and every "civil" dog, given the chance to go back into prey when possible will be the far more stable dog, way more suitable for daily use ( be it IPO, PP, or, in my case, both ).

It´s about balance, it´s about responsibility ( yes, we are responsible for the mind of our dog ), and it´s about the result.

GSDfan:

"Coming off the bite at any level is very undesirable (regarless if he goes back on)."

Hans:

Obviously gsdfan is studying my forum and disagree with some explanations there. I totally disagree with her  absolute and not explained statement.  The line on the top of this post  is again sportism attitude. In sport and subsequently sportism,  the dog is mostly desired to be  in prey . If the dog  lets go then he is not in prey but is in defense observing real or perceived ( not real - imaginary  ) danger or threat.  That is what sport,  where the prey is king, does not like. 

 However in protection training the prey and defense must be in balance. Prey and defense  are 2 sides of the  same coin or training.That brings me to the point of dog's survival instincts . Sound dog naturally well equipped to survive, too would have prey and defense in adequate balance. Now I ask. What is defense? Defense is a survival response to a threat. If the threat is sudden  then one of the responses is that the dog startles  and may even let go off the bite.  Startling is very important part of survival instincts.  Thus it is completely normal AND DESIRABLE for the dog to startle and recover . The dog who does not startle when something new and sudden like shotgun goes off unexpectedly  over his head   in such event has something wrong with his head since his survival instincts  are not there the way they ought to. Such dog has a major problem. The point   which is important is  that the dog recovers after he startles. If he does not  recover then  we can start talking about nerves and problem. Also as the dog progresses through training then certain sounds  will became familiar and the dog should not startle if the sounds are not  sign of threat.  For example repetitive banging with short cadence or rhythm should stop strtling the dog after 3 or so bangs.   If the dog continuously startles at sounds or actions which are identical, repetitive  but not threatening has weak nerves or suffers from unlikely strychnine poisoning. For example dog in SchH    on long down should not startle at the sound of gunfire since the sound is expected, trained   and not threatening.  

 Here is a video of a dog  IN TRAINING who correctly startles ad recovers. Correctly because he did not lost focus and reengage.   As the training progresses this dog should not startle in such situation.