Sportism - Page 17

Forgot to say something very important: A dog is no human, that said we have to make use of the natural drives/instincts/behaviors of our dogs. They don´t know the difference between a training scenario and a loaded gun - and the "bad guy" doesn´t care if he was bitten out of "defense" or out of prey...

susie:"Sportism" - sorry, but a good dog is able to switch between prey and defense ( while prey should be the dog´s comfort zone defense should kick in when needed ). A "transition" is no real problem, but during training you need a good helper, and you need to be a good handler; first and foremost you need to be able to "read" your dog. A lot of people are not able to interpret the behavior of their own dog accordingly..."

Hans:

Susie sportism has nothing to do with dog being "able to switch between prey and defense".
Sportism has to do with teaching the dog to first target equipment and not man and then switch the demand on the dog to target the man and not equipment. It does not matter in what drive this is done. It amazes me that some say I am talking about this ad nauseam and yet it is so misunderstood. it is all abouut how we get the dog civil. Lineraly  from sport = sportism or strictly by teaching the dog to target the man  from get go - from  leson1. 

gsdfan:"So even if they chase the decoy around the corner in a prey state of mind, then the decoy turns and charges and puts the dog in defense...he will transition between drives and still perform accordingly and always bite. "

 

Hans: Dog in prey does not necessarily transition from prey to defense when the decoy turns at the dog as you describe. For example all this scenario in sport training is all done in prey. It is interesting how people misunderstand the dog's state of mind. The fact is that the dog usually ( not always) stay in prey drive regardless which direction the decoy is running. that is how he is trained!  The training as it is performed today teaches the dog that such change in the direction does not involve any negative challenge which is prerequisit of swithch to defense. Same as when confused rabbit decides to run against the predator like dog, the predator is not going to swith into defense bacause harmless hare is running directly into his  muzzle - so to speak . Competition is actually trained to inrease so called "negative challenge" to the point that to causal onlooker it looks like that the dog must be switching into defense yet the dog is continually in prey. Which is attested to  by no change of the demeanor of the dog during of the change of the direction of run of the helper or decoy or rabbit  for that matter. 

 All I am saying is that decoy advancing at the dog may but does not necessarily mean that the dog is going to be in defense. 

Without real pressure its still prey, I agree. Trained responce solid post Hans.

If the dog stays in prey then its a stronger dog than the one who got defensive, simple.

LOL Hans you missed my last sentence when you quoted me..."I could say alot more but I will keep it simple for clarification purposes."

Besides I was theoretically painting a picture of a dog running into the unexpected. Chasing a rabbit and running into a bear.

You are correct in that a dog started through prey the goal of training is for him to function in prey most of the time regardless of what the decoy does or environmental stressors and decoy movement is not necessarily the only thing that would stimulate a transition. But NOT for every dog in every venue.

In IPO, for any dog to function in prey the entire time is much more possible than PSA or Police K9 (because all the same scenarios are practiced repeatedly...all schutzhund fields look the same, all helpers wear the same sleeve, all helpers move and present the sleeve the same way).

In PSA and Police K9, new environments, different equipment, new decoys or subjects with entirely different levels of presence, all types of distractions (strange smells, darkness, water, power tools, getting hit, to things that move strange or make noise etc etc etc). Even if your average dog is exposed to these things... change the decoy or change the location and it can certainly push a dog into defense.

I have done many PSA trials where I or another decoy has pushed a dog into defense. Those who's thresholds were crossed failed to engage and got run. Others who were trained, confident and prepared well you may only see it in a growl on the grip, a couple hackles, the dog not wanting to out or the dog frantically pulling right before the out. Just because its subtle doesn't mean the dog didn't transition between drives. I had a dog who would growl during the drive but remain quiet if the decoy moved away from her (like an escape bite).

Again Just because it's not obvious what is going on upstairs to an onlooker doesn't mean the decoy can't see, feel or hear it.


 

Defense causes stress, stress compounds and builds until the threshold is crossed and the dog comes off the bite. Coming off the bite at any level is very undesirable (regarless if he goes back on).

Prey releases stress.

A dog who can remain in prey the longest or transition to prey easily and release stress at every opportunity will be able to handle great amounts of pressure, thus able to remain on the bite full and hard and out clean when commanded.

As a decoy in training I will constantly apply pressure with breaks of prey and even praise. As the dog matures and progresses I will build on the duration of pressure. The dog (and how much depends on the dogs natural prey/defense levels) will become somewhat desensitized to pressure and remain in prey longer, or transition faster.

Some dogs who have come to me started in defense, getting them to transition to prey took great effort and in some cases nearly impossible for any duration. As a dogs regular training decoy, I am the dogs sparring partner ( I am his "bait dog") preparing him for his fight, he should not see me as an adversary and be so insecure about his safety to the point I can't touch his head while he's on the bite without him trying to transfer. A dog like that is useless for anything except PPD.

GSDFan said - to the point I can't touch his head while he's on the bite without him trying to transfer. A dog like that is useless for anything except PPD.

Gee said - nope the above is useless for credible man work but may well be titled on the field.

@Hans - good post.

Regards
Gee

Gee said - nope the above is useless for credible man work but may well be titled on the field.

LMAO What dogs have you titled? If I touch the dogs head and he comes off the bite to transfer, that means his threshold is so low he can't take a touch much less a stick, or any type of pressure or distraction. That dog is so easily run-able it's pathetic.

@GSDfan - I don't title dogs.

Saw way to many to know that titles in real terms can be very misleading, both in tracking and what you call protection. I am generalizing, however you seem to do a fair bit of that yourself.

Look it is simple, rather than talking about your definition of pressure, just show us your dog taking credible pressure?

Basically - take a way the dancing decoy, take away the huge visual trigger - suit or overt sleeve, throw into the mix some physical and envirnomental difficulty - and lets see what you are left with?

Not to much to ask a police dog supplier/trainer/seminar speaker lol?

Regards
Gee