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by Gustav on 14 December 2012 - 20:12
@ pjp ......what you call confusion I often refer to as conflict...lol...same principle...there must be clarity between handler and dog whether on table or ground.
by ziegenfarm on 15 December 2012 - 07:12
this is an old pic of an attempt at crowd control. there are many others, but i just happened to see this one again recently.
this may or may not have anything to do with table training......doesn't matter, the same principles apply. the dog is obviously
not under the direction of his handler & confused about who is whom. an example of what you do not want to see in a
service dog. (or a schh dog)
pjp
this may or may not have anything to do with table training......doesn't matter, the same principles apply. the dog is obviously
not under the direction of his handler & confused about who is whom. an example of what you do not want to see in a
service dog. (or a schh dog)
pjp
by susie on 15 December 2012 - 11:12
German Shepherds are able to learn a lot, but I didn´t find one yet, that was able to read 
by Gustav on 15 December 2012 - 12:12
Yeah, that pic is not so uncommon....a lot of officers have been bit during this type of exercise....lol. The table has nothing to do with it....in real life application sport obedience goes out the window.....and truthfully that's okay. Hey but that's another issue.
by joanro on 15 December 2012 - 13:12
Sport obedience works for sport. Period. lol
by Q Man on 15 December 2012 - 14:12
I think Table training...is an extention of the Post...I believe Post and Table training are great tools that can be used to teach the dog a lot of very important things...For both Sport and Street dogs...
Even for dogs that are titled (SchH3) can be and should be taken back to the basics and refreshed on what they know and the way they should work...
Aggression Work is a very fundamental exercise and should be refreshed often...Just like doing any other exercise...such as a Long Bite or Escape... ... ...Grip Work can be worked on every time you give the dog a bite...Even for Police dogs...
I know so many Police Depts that never worked on grips...but why not...I mean you're doing the work anyways...so why not work on the grips...I mean even Police dogs should be taught to bite with a full grip...It just helps in the apprehension process...
For my SchH dogs...I'll not only use a Post and Table work but also use a Body Suit...I don't want my dogs to be just a trained robot...I want my dogs to be real and work and bite FOR REAL...
~Bob~
Even for dogs that are titled (SchH3) can be and should be taken back to the basics and refreshed on what they know and the way they should work...
Aggression Work is a very fundamental exercise and should be refreshed often...Just like doing any other exercise...such as a Long Bite or Escape... ... ...Grip Work can be worked on every time you give the dog a bite...Even for Police dogs...
I know so many Police Depts that never worked on grips...but why not...I mean you're doing the work anyways...so why not work on the grips...I mean even Police dogs should be taught to bite with a full grip...It just helps in the apprehension process...
For my SchH dogs...I'll not only use a Post and Table work but also use a Body Suit...I don't want my dogs to be just a trained robot...I want my dogs to be real and work and bite FOR REAL...
~Bob~
by Slamdunc on 15 December 2012 - 16:12
Ok, I really don't want to get into table training to much here.....It's all been said before. But, some of the statements made need some clarification. First, Ed Frawley is not anyone to quote, endorse or comment on when it comes to really working dogs and especially breeding dogs. Back in the 90's when his puppy mill was going full tilt I saw some of the worst temperament, severely dysplastic dogs that I have ever seen from one breeder. To be fair, I only worked 6 out of the 3,000 or so pups he produced. Of the six, 5 from different litters were dysplastic, one dog was ok overall. Yes, out of thousands of puppies I'm sure a few were very good, especially early on. I just didn't see any really good ones and have seen or heard of very few titled dogs coming out of that "working" line breeder. Like so many "working" line or "Police breeding" programs the vast majority of puppies produced go to pet homes. That is the market and the "working or I sell to PD's" is the marketing. You can see it here on the PDB today just different folks.
Ok, enough with Frawley now back to table training.............
i don't like any training
scenario that breaks the 1st cardinal rule: the handler is the boss, the dog is the partner and the helper is the bad guy.
any time the bad guy is running the show---telling the boss & his partner what to do----its fucked up. sorry, but the boss
and his partner need to be running the show. if training theory has to be discussed, it should be done before the dog is
introduced to the helper.
Well, the handler is not always the boss! More often than not the decoy has to direct the handler in what to do. Often times the trainer has more experience than the handler and has to run the show. I have seen this countless times in SchH and with Police Handlers. When some one comes to me for training or to work on a issue with their dog they are generally not in a position to run the show. I agree the handler and decoy / trainer should discuss the goals of the training session before hand, before the dog is bought on the field or put on the table. Once the dog is on the field / table the dog and decoy are the show. Depending on what you are training the handler may be right in the mix, giving orders, praising the dog, giving commands to the decoy. There are times when the handler is intentionally taken out of the equation and the dog is left to work on his own and the handler stands there with his / her mouth shut and watches. If I see a handler dependent dog I may make the handler leave the room with the table or leave the field. Now, the dog must confront and fight the decoy and make decisions on it's own. I as the decoy and trainer will get the desired response from the dog and react to that response. This will allow the dog to learn to work on his own and win. Nothing worse than an overbearing handler creating a dependency on the dog's part. For Police work this can't happen. I will take the handler aside and explain how he is screwing up his dog by him being too much of the "boss." Anyone here who decoys will tell you more often than not the handler can not run the show. If I have an experienced handler, sure we will discuss things first and work together. But, nothing annoys me more than the novice handler with a little bit of knowledge telling me how his dog should be worked when the handler is completely incorrect. This goes for sport and Police work.
With regards to the videos posted in the beginning of this thread. The decoy / trainer did an excellent job of working that dog and acclimating the dog to the table. This video proves my point where the decoy must take charge because the handler has never done table work before. In this case discussing things with the handler in the dog's presence was entirely the right thing to do. The dog needed time to acclimate to the table , relax and the conversation gave the dog the time. The decoy needed to take charge and keep the handler out of the picture and work the dog. The decoy knew what he was doing and was smart in taking control. Table training is different that working on a field and the "1st cardinal rule" needs to be a little more flexible.
Gustav, Judron, Bob , Susie and Q man make knowledgeable comments on table training and training in general. Regarding the picture of the K-9 biting the other Officer...........Well, Susie said it best. I have never met a GSD that was able to read!!!! Exactly correct!!! Dogs do not recognize uniforms, especially in those situations. Yes, dogs will recognize team members and other Officers when searching, tracking or building clearing. But in a hostile, target rich environment for a dog such as a riot the dog will get aggressive and occasionally an Officer gets tagged. Big flippin deal it happens. I can't tell you how many hands on altercations I have been in where an Officer grabs his OC spray and hoses me instead of the bad guy, or one of us inadvertently catches a strike meant to gain compliance from a suspect. Dogs when they get agitated especially when trying to apprehend a combative subject will bite Officers if they get in the way. That is on the handlers and Officers to have that situational awareness and try to avoid that but it happens, not a huge thing.
There are things that can be done on a table that simply can not be done on a post or back tied. On the table I am eye I level with the dog and can get very close to the dog safely. I will often agitate and then reach in and touch the dog's ear while it is trying to bite me. You can not do that safely with the dog on the ground. When you can really pressure a dog and get in it's face you can really develop aggression and confidence when done properly. I can work dogs in prey and switch to defense. I can get high prey, equipment fixated dogs to step over sleeves to really try and engage me in a few sessions. I can take dogs and build their confidence and teach them to be powerful, strong dogs can be taught to bring out real aggression and controlled rage. We teach our dogs to explode into rage on command and quiet down and I will approach and pet them a minute later. I can take a sport dog or K-9 and have it loving working on the table in one day with 3 sessions. The dog will come into the room and jump up on the table and be happy and calm, ready to fight and work. Much like a boxer and his coach and sparring partner. I am the coach, the sparring partner and bad guy all in one to the dog and the dog quickly realizes this. A trust is developed, correct work is praised by me and the handler and issues are worked out. I can switch the dog from friendly and outgoing and be petting the dog to a rage by changing my demeanor and giving a look or a breath. I can switch the dog back by a smile and a few gestures. These are not things you can learn on the internet, as Bob mentioned go see Gene and train with him. It is really an eye opening experience.
I have posted videos on other forums of taking an insecure dog and in two sessions bringing up the confidence level. I have also posted videos of working strong dogs and getting them to "turn on and turn off" on command. Seeing the dog going from calm to enraged and back to being calm and approachable again in a minute is really awesome. I have vendors and trainers from several PD's come out to train their dogs on the table with me. For the Police dogs it can get prety intense and the results are awesome. I do get very close to the dog when pressuring it nearly nose to nose and have gotten tagged several times. We don't use sleeves very much for this, for a sport dog like in the videos posted earlier in the topic I use sleeves. It seems when ever we do this with a bunch of PD's I usually get tagged once in the arm or hand, training continues when the bleeding stops. The guys always have video rolling to see which dog I will push my luck with. Reaching in and touching a dog's nose when it is in a rage requires quick hands, I seem to be slowing down as I get older. You simply can not do that on a post on the ground. Well you can but it would not be safe at all.
Ok, enough with Frawley now back to table training.............
i don't like any training
scenario that breaks the 1st cardinal rule: the handler is the boss, the dog is the partner and the helper is the bad guy.
any time the bad guy is running the show---telling the boss & his partner what to do----its fucked up. sorry, but the boss
and his partner need to be running the show. if training theory has to be discussed, it should be done before the dog is
introduced to the helper.
Well, the handler is not always the boss! More often than not the decoy has to direct the handler in what to do. Often times the trainer has more experience than the handler and has to run the show. I have seen this countless times in SchH and with Police Handlers. When some one comes to me for training or to work on a issue with their dog they are generally not in a position to run the show. I agree the handler and decoy / trainer should discuss the goals of the training session before hand, before the dog is bought on the field or put on the table. Once the dog is on the field / table the dog and decoy are the show. Depending on what you are training the handler may be right in the mix, giving orders, praising the dog, giving commands to the decoy. There are times when the handler is intentionally taken out of the equation and the dog is left to work on his own and the handler stands there with his / her mouth shut and watches. If I see a handler dependent dog I may make the handler leave the room with the table or leave the field. Now, the dog must confront and fight the decoy and make decisions on it's own. I as the decoy and trainer will get the desired response from the dog and react to that response. This will allow the dog to learn to work on his own and win. Nothing worse than an overbearing handler creating a dependency on the dog's part. For Police work this can't happen. I will take the handler aside and explain how he is screwing up his dog by him being too much of the "boss." Anyone here who decoys will tell you more often than not the handler can not run the show. If I have an experienced handler, sure we will discuss things first and work together. But, nothing annoys me more than the novice handler with a little bit of knowledge telling me how his dog should be worked when the handler is completely incorrect. This goes for sport and Police work.
With regards to the videos posted in the beginning of this thread. The decoy / trainer did an excellent job of working that dog and acclimating the dog to the table. This video proves my point where the decoy must take charge because the handler has never done table work before. In this case discussing things with the handler in the dog's presence was entirely the right thing to do. The dog needed time to acclimate to the table , relax and the conversation gave the dog the time. The decoy needed to take charge and keep the handler out of the picture and work the dog. The decoy knew what he was doing and was smart in taking control. Table training is different that working on a field and the "1st cardinal rule" needs to be a little more flexible.
Gustav, Judron, Bob , Susie and Q man make knowledgeable comments on table training and training in general. Regarding the picture of the K-9 biting the other Officer...........Well, Susie said it best. I have never met a GSD that was able to read!!!! Exactly correct!!! Dogs do not recognize uniforms, especially in those situations. Yes, dogs will recognize team members and other Officers when searching, tracking or building clearing. But in a hostile, target rich environment for a dog such as a riot the dog will get aggressive and occasionally an Officer gets tagged. Big flippin deal it happens. I can't tell you how many hands on altercations I have been in where an Officer grabs his OC spray and hoses me instead of the bad guy, or one of us inadvertently catches a strike meant to gain compliance from a suspect. Dogs when they get agitated especially when trying to apprehend a combative subject will bite Officers if they get in the way. That is on the handlers and Officers to have that situational awareness and try to avoid that but it happens, not a huge thing.
There are things that can be done on a table that simply can not be done on a post or back tied. On the table I am eye I level with the dog and can get very close to the dog safely. I will often agitate and then reach in and touch the dog's ear while it is trying to bite me. You can not do that safely with the dog on the ground. When you can really pressure a dog and get in it's face you can really develop aggression and confidence when done properly. I can work dogs in prey and switch to defense. I can get high prey, equipment fixated dogs to step over sleeves to really try and engage me in a few sessions. I can take dogs and build their confidence and teach them to be powerful, strong dogs can be taught to bring out real aggression and controlled rage. We teach our dogs to explode into rage on command and quiet down and I will approach and pet them a minute later. I can take a sport dog or K-9 and have it loving working on the table in one day with 3 sessions. The dog will come into the room and jump up on the table and be happy and calm, ready to fight and work. Much like a boxer and his coach and sparring partner. I am the coach, the sparring partner and bad guy all in one to the dog and the dog quickly realizes this. A trust is developed, correct work is praised by me and the handler and issues are worked out. I can switch the dog from friendly and outgoing and be petting the dog to a rage by changing my demeanor and giving a look or a breath. I can switch the dog back by a smile and a few gestures. These are not things you can learn on the internet, as Bob mentioned go see Gene and train with him. It is really an eye opening experience.
I have posted videos on other forums of taking an insecure dog and in two sessions bringing up the confidence level. I have also posted videos of working strong dogs and getting them to "turn on and turn off" on command. Seeing the dog going from calm to enraged and back to being calm and approachable again in a minute is really awesome. I have vendors and trainers from several PD's come out to train their dogs on the table with me. For the Police dogs it can get prety intense and the results are awesome. I do get very close to the dog when pressuring it nearly nose to nose and have gotten tagged several times. We don't use sleeves very much for this, for a sport dog like in the videos posted earlier in the topic I use sleeves. It seems when ever we do this with a bunch of PD's I usually get tagged once in the arm or hand, training continues when the bleeding stops. The guys always have video rolling to see which dog I will push my luck with. Reaching in and touching a dog's nose when it is in a rage requires quick hands, I seem to be slowing down as I get older. You simply can not do that on a post on the ground. Well you can but it would not be safe at all.
by swingfield on 15 December 2012 - 17:12
We use it for the K-9 training.. I like my "yearlings" in training to be comfortable on anything up off the ground.. ie: picnic tables, back of the pickup trucks, playground equipment.. I put my 14 month old up there to get confident and no pressure..just to watch the goings on and find his feet.. I am not following any train of thought in regards to the post I understand.. I have seen dogs "blossom" under the correct table training.. and I have seen it "blow" their mind.. that is where we depend on the right trainer, the correct age and maturity to use these tools at the appropriate times in their training ! but it is great to watch a bad ass dog get more confidence and use these skills for the street, especially when his handler is out of sight during training !! This picture is not the best of my boy way back when.. but he has turned into a dependable street partner and will go up, over, around and through with confidence now!
by J Basler on 15 December 2012 - 17:12
SLAMDUNC
That was an AWSOME sumation on training K9s very good. I applaud you and your efforts to express intelligence to this thread.
THANKS VERY MUCH.
That was an AWSOME sumation on training K9s very good. I applaud you and your efforts to express intelligence to this thread.
THANKS VERY MUCH.
by ziegenfarm on 15 December 2012 - 23:12
i'm sorry, jim. i cannot agree with you----at least not in general. while you are obviously able to utilize these methods
yourself, there are far too many who can't. placing a dog with this sort of training with a handler that is obviously not
up to the task is a receipe for disaster. i will say once again: it is not the table i am opposed to, it is the manner in which
the whole thing is conducted. i know of a couple of guys i would trust with table training, but most.....i wouldn't let near
my dogs, but then i wouldn't trust them with my dogs on any account.
pjp
yourself, there are far too many who can't. placing a dog with this sort of training with a handler that is obviously not
up to the task is a receipe for disaster. i will say once again: it is not the table i am opposed to, it is the manner in which
the whole thing is conducted. i know of a couple of guys i would trust with table training, but most.....i wouldn't let near
my dogs, but then i wouldn't trust them with my dogs on any account.
pjp
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