Table Training theory and application. - Page 5

I wonder who taught the people in the Czech Republic, Slovakia and police training centers, cause its pretty common and I still see good police dogs being developed....Gene England is a fabulous resource, but there are a lot of good people (as well as bad...lol) out there today.

Ugly,
I think I also used that Boxing / sparring partner analogy in this thread...Funny, I originally stole it from Debbie Zappia.

Judron - "Table, pole...same objective....get the handlers hands off the leash"

....Couldn't be farther from the truth.

please Ugly....tell me throughout your whole scenario where the handler had the leash....just once:-0

There are many times that the handler needs to be put out of the equation.  I agree with Judron that sometimes the handlers need only to be there to praise.  When I see a dog with handler sensitivity and handler  conflict the pole or table works great.  For those that have decoyed and seen a dog's eyes roll into the back of it's head when the handler approaches the dog on a bite you will know exactly what I am talking about.   Sometimes the handler is the problem and the dog needs to be worked calmly and clearly which the handler prevents.  This can be seen in problems with the out and hectic / frantic dogs in bite work.  Often rebuilding that relationship between the dog and handler can be done on the table.  Showing the handler the negative impact he is having on his dog can be a really "ah hah" moment.  This is for sport and working dogs.

I am not a fan of decoys correcting dogs in SchH or Police work, but coaching, sparring and training is different.

Judron, The Objective of the table is not to get the handlers off the leash.......It is to limit the dog's options but still give him the chance to go through all his options.  You cannot limit options very affectively while on a pole/tie out. 

In most all of the training on the table the handler has the lead in order to suppress the dog, or give direction when needed.  i.e. if the dog "turns on" or becomes vocal when not instructed to do so or becomes aggressive when not told to do so the handler has the lead on a slip collar to suppress while not making the suppression personal to the dog. 


Also, instead of taking the handler out of the equation we can get him/her in closer with the dog working as a team.  Through the handler being up next to the dog portraying that the decoy is a threat we can help bring confidence to the younger or weaker dogs.

Although getting the handler out of the equation, affectively limiting one area of conflict can be a by-product of training on a table, it is not the objective of using a table.  That is where I am disagreeing with you


Slam Dunc.....something tells me the analogy of the boxer sparring with his student all originated with the same guy in this case:)

Ugly,
So, are you saying that Gene stole it from Debbie? 

I think we are all basically discussing the same thing and there are several ways to utilize the table depending on the needs of the individual dog and handler.  I understand how Gene and you train with the table and I am obviously a big proponent.  I have been to train with Gene and he is excellent.  There are many things that can be accomplished utilizing a table and I do agree with your view.  I have also seen enough situations where one of the biggest issues with a dog is the handler and taking him out of the equation and just have him praise the dog as you mention helps rebuild that relationship.  

Who is Gene England and what part of the country does he live?   ecs

""I am not a fan of decoys correcting dogs in SchH or Police work, but coaching, sparring and training is different...""

jim, i am glad you cleared that up. 

pjp

@pjp....whether you subscribe to tables or not, your credibility with me as one who values your perspective, is very very strong! Your perspective always makes sense to me....regardless of your position.

ziegenfarm,
I'm glad that your glad.  I didn't realize that needed clarification.  To be even clearer there are times in sport training when a decoy may correct a dog, this could be SchH, ring, PSA, etc.  There are times in sport training when I find it acceptable or necessary for the decoy to correct the dog.  For example when the handler is unable to correct the dog due to the handler's inability to deliver an effective correction, the handler's timing, proximity to the dog, conflict between the dog and hander.  There are a lot of reasons in sport for a decoy or third party to deliver a correction.  Do I have the decoy correct my dog, generally no.  Have I done this over the years in SchH training?  Yes, I have.  I prefer not to but I do understand that their may be a time in training when it is necessary.  This is discussed in advance with the decoy and guidelines are set.   Have I ever corrected a dog as a decoy in sport work?  Yes, I have.  Will I do it again?  Yes, I will.  Is there a problem with a properly timed, effective correction from a decoy during sport training?  No, not really.  Am I big fan of this?   No, as I said earlier.  I much prefer the dog and handler to be trained and the handler have the tools in place to correct before I am placed in that position.  Decoy corrections in sport work are often done as a "polishing" and "proofing" exercise and usually not in the actual "training" and learning process.  I am a big fan of having a "plan A" where everything goes perfectly and a "plan B" for when things do not go according to "plan A."  The decoy may be involved in "Plan B."  I'm not sure how much or what type of training that you do with your dog, but this is a generally accepted practice and often necessary in sport work.  In SchH the number of actual skilled and talented handlers is a small percentage compared to the actual number of people participating in the sport.  

For Police K-9's no, the decoy never corrects the dog.  We are discussing two completely different styles of training with different outcomes and objectives between Sport work (SchH, ring, PSA, etc) and actual patrol training.  In our Police K-9 training the decoy is a bad guy and the dog has to win at all costs.  I never want our patrol dogs taking direction from the decoy, being concerned about corrections from the decoy or anything else.  In contrast our dogs may have to fight through compulsion, pain compliance and mental and physical stress form the decoy.  Here the decoy does not give corrections, quite the opposite.  As a decoy for Police K-9's I am constantly trying to find the chinks in the armor and expose the holes and weaknesses.  These dogs need to be pushed on a regular basis while being built up and made stronger and more confident.  One of the biggest differences between sport work and Patrol work is that our Patrol dogs do not get to train for two or three years and then pick a trial and go out and compete and then go back for more training.  Patrol dogs have to be ready to compete every day, sometimes several times a day and our scoring system is a little different.  

For sport or Police work the table has tremendous benefits when understood and used properly, like any thing else.  In dog training people have to keep an open mind and not always dismiss things that they disagree with or lack experience with.