what determines a VA - Page 2

OK Dog 1, What country did the dog earn the VA? (answer) what difference does it make if it was an SV judge and the STANDARD was from the SV? I guess that answers your second question also (considering what critiques and placing has the dog earned?) The standard should be the same! Any judge representing the SV should judge the dogs the same as from Geramny including into their opinion the standard of the SV and hopefully eliminating obvious "POLITICS". Do not lower the standard of the VA title by compromising the qualification and giving it away in any country. The judges are from the SV and SO what else but the official standard of the SV should determine the placements of the dogs?

I think that you are missing the reason for the VA title. Titles can not be comparered across country borders. The VA listings are used as a guideline to which the breeders of a country can see what dogs should be prefered to be used for stud. The name say Vorgesugliche Auslese or prefered for breeding. Roug translation. V simply means that the dog is very god and has no flaws that would be unwanted in the breeding

Spaetzle, I guess I'm missing your point. The criteria is the same. Dog must pass the protection work pronounced, be SchH2 or equivalent, Breed surveyed from surveyed parents, correct dentation, yada, yada. The criteria is the same. What's missing? I don't see the difference in standard that you mention. What requirement exists in Germany that does not exist in the US for a dog to get a VA rating?

The number of BSZS dogs is a bit off Spaetzle. You forgot the dogs excused by the vet, and those that did not get a show rating. Many dogs never make it to the German Siegershow to show their stuff for various reasons. Not in top shape, out of coat, previous injury, recent litter, there are many more reasons. And yes, during the show season it may become obvious that the BSZS judge may simply not prefer that particular type of dog and squash an excellent dogs chances well before the BSZS. A different judge will produce different show results. Would be terrible if all judges judged the same. We would all have cookie cutter dogs. So a dog may not get the top placing in Germany under judge A, but it may excell at a different Siegershow under judge B. That does not diminish the quality of the show nor the quality of the judging. You also have to consider regional differences. The type of dogs present and presented in a particular area will influence how the dogs are being judged. You even have these regional differences within Germany. Though the Standard is SV and the judges are SV, the judging will always reflect the judges individual interpretation of that standard. And the dogs performance on that one particular day. He may well have an off day at a different show. In the US in particular the distances keep many good dogs from showing. The event nearly replaces a weeks holiday for the people involved, includes extensive travel for most, and considerable expenses. The clusters of placings would be a logical result of more people showing close to the event. One thing that Dog1 only briefly mentioned is that way too many people focus on just the VA rating. The consistently top producing kennels in Germany breed the dogs they feel are necessary to keep them in the top quality. A dog itself may not be the best in show but it may be a good producer. Or it may improve on certain important criteria. If everyone just uses the VA males we only have offspring from a handful of dogs. That is hardly the purpose of the Siegershows. Sadly, outside of Germany any dog ranked lower than V10 gets snuffed as not good enough. In Germany the whole first ring basically is considered the cream of the crop. Second ring is still considered a very noteworthy accomplishment. The non VA dogs may not be used as frequently for stud - but that is merely a result to popular reaction, not a reflection on actual quality of the dogs. People have to overcome that popular notion themselves. As to the German Sieger show being the best? Imagine American Football becoming a most popular sport all over the world. Superbowls are being played in several different countries. Though there may be fewer games the quality of the players is excellent and so are the games. The winning team is very deserving of their trophy. In the end, there is only one true Superbowl though, the American Superbowl. The German Siegershow is THE Superbowl of GSD shows...

A v a dog has something to offer the breed, as the judgeing progresses over the show season progeny are noticed that stand out over others, maybe a front assembly, top line, more correct length, etc... the difference between the US and Germany are the numbers, a large difference. A male rated high in Germany can be a U S or Canadian Sieger, even tho he didn't make it in Germany, beause he's still considered better then the males in either country and potentially could produce progeny closer to the standard. Breeders cloud the issues by smoke screening competition, every one should attempt to learn how to judge the different in top lines. this way you can see for your self which V A shepherds have something to offer your line. I didn't like Bax, but aparently the judge did.

No DH, the numbers in my post are the numbers of dogs given a VA per ratio of dogs given a rating. I did not include excused or pulled. I guess that I am learning that the whole rating game is just a big marketing ploy. What the heck is the importance of a VA if it can be bought, bartered or given by the judge that actually bred the dog (why wouldn't that be considered just a bit of a conflict of interest)? What credibility lies in the system as it exists? Everyone that I have talked to admits that it is politically incorrect but will remain this way until changes come from the SV from the TOP down. There are some dogs that are truly select and deserve their rating but I would hate to know how many got it through deceptive manuvers. What have they done to our breed Max?

who better to judge a progeny bred by a judge, the judge him self. if the judge is a well respected judge who has bred good dogs for several yrs, they should know what a good shepherd from their line is. I agree it looks rotten to those who don't understand the process. it looks especially bad when the dogs are in another country, and the judge is ask to judge the show. how would it feel to have progeny from a top male bred by that judge and find them placed last in the classes. I think this judge hasn't a clue on how to breed shepherds that can reproduce. or the judge dosen't like what he produces.

Well Spaetzle, your numbers are still off because a T rating, a U rating is still a rating. That is how the dog performed that day and that is how it was judged and that is what the dog had earned that day. Had it done better IT could have been the VA of the day. Ghandi was VA in 02, he did not out in 03 = no VA, he passed the bite work in 04 = VA again. So this dog is not to be included in the number of dogs showing just because he received a T? Dogs receiving an EZ rating still need to be included because they had started to participate at the show and were pulled during the course of the event for whatever reasons. They too could have been a VA of the day. Political? Yes - every time you do something as part of an organized something or other will you have politics. But lets also be realistic. No dog will receive a top rating anywhere unless it is a good representative of the breed worthy to be made the poster boy or girl for that year and with a VA to become part of GSD history. No money in the world will buy a dog a VA that is a below standard dog, a G rated dog, an SG rated dog, a barely V rated dog. No friendship is that close to result in an embarrassment for the judge just because he wants to do buddy a favor with putting a crappy dog onto a VA spot. And no sex in the world will be that good either to get your mediocre dog that VA :o). You can have all the fun in the world trying though . Maybe some dogs are better. But where are they? Maybe some dogs never get noticed. Whose fault is that though? If you cannot tough out the competition in the show ring and persist to push and get noticed, then you and your dog as a team will be pushed aside by the stronger teams. Not necessarily the better teams. C'est la vie, my friend. It is a competition after all. Who is going to benefit from a dog that sits idle on someone's sofa and noone ever hears about it, sees it, knows it even exists? How do you suppose are such dogs going to make VA if their owners never bother to promote the dog properly? If they do not bother to train the dog properly, show it constantly during show season? Take the time. Make the effort. Who benefits from a VA that is never seen again after the show is over? Who benefits from a VA if the owner only has a half hearted interest in the breed? Lastly - the decision to put such a huge value on the VA is your own political decision. Would YOU buy a pup out of a lesser ranking male? Probably not. Especially in the US people are looking so hard for these VA titles in the pedigrees, that they totally overlook some very important producers, or fail to even notice good dogs that never got these top ratings. There are very good dogs out there that are owned by people who do not want to be part of the BSZS rat race or are past that now. Ie Quenn vom Monchberg, never really shown much in Germany, then VA in USA last year, awesome dog! Before he went VA, who took notice of him? No one really... Because he was never promoted much few people probably still notice him. That too is political. C'est la vie.

DH you missed the point...the numbers were meant only to show the lopsided persentage of VAs awarded per dogs awarded ratings. If you want to expand the numbers than it becomes even more evident that the awarded ratings ratio is lopsided(but for your sake let us define the numbers from Karlsruhe as recorded: VA 9 V 150 SG 5 g 1 u 5 ez 27 t1 2 t2 4 t3 39 t4 3 So where we stand is out of 245 entries there were 9 VAs. Would you still like to compare that to the amount of entries for the USA Sieger Show compared to the amount of VAs awarded and make some sort of educational guess as to what that reflects on overall quality? And what about progeny? Was there any progeny considered in either Country when the VAs were awarded? I will not even go there as to who is sleeping with whom....or how successful that ended up..nor will I consider who may be carrying cash gifts to Germany...or who is selling whose kennel garbage for judging favors..... The decision to put such a huge value on the VA is a marketing ploy and even someone who pretends to be as naive as you can not truly believe that we are competing in a fair venue.But that brings us to the JUDGES.... If all the people that pay their entries believing that they have a fair chance to win based on the quality of their dog find out that the results are already decided (bought out by dirty politics) no longer enter, who will pay for the extravaganza? Who will pay for the airfares and expenses of the judges? My suggestion is that we STOP buying dogs from Germany because we have some very good dogs bred in the US. My suggestion is that we stop supporting any shows where judges from the SV come to the US and place their breedings in the top three. My suggestion is that we stop supporting European handlers flying over and placing in the top five places over dogs handled by our own US handlers. My suggestion is that statistically we have the better dogs and that we move forward and develope progeny from US studs /females and stop sending our $$ business to Germany. Cut off the easy money and concentrate on breedings from the US. But that is just my opinion...and I am still doing research on the topic.

So where exactly did the US dogs come from...? Where exactly do most of the US VAs come from...? Are the dogs really "statistically" better at the US Sieger shows, or do more VAs in comparison to dogs shown just mean the US owners have deeper pockets? According to your view of political involvement, that would have to be the case then, wouldn't it? Maybe the US owners are just better in bed ;o). What about Canada? The dogs shown there must be really bad! Only one single VA... jeez! Does that make the dogs entered are worse, or does that mean that one VA is more valuable than or equal to the BSZS World Sieger? Do your research, my friend. Start with trying to find out why there is only one VA in Canada. That might enlighten you a little as to who determines what. BTW, how many people do you think would make the effort and go through the expense to travel across the country to a US Sieger show if only one VA was to be awarded there? You'd most likely see the same low entries you see in Canada. VA titles are not awarded in a special ratio. Look at the BSZS 04 females. Fewer dogs shown, more VAs awarded. It also varies from year to year. If more deserving dogs are present, more VAs will get awarded. The VAs go to the dogs that have earned it in that judges opinion. Whichever way they have done that (boy these judges must have a very happy sex life!). The dog that has the best and most expensive handler at the other end of the leash, is that fair if yours doesn't have such a handler? The dog that has the best training money can buy behind him, is that fair to the owner trained dog? The dog that is heavily campaigned across the country or maybe even internationally and is well known to all sort of judges and other GSD enthusiasts, is that fair to the dog whose owner only shows locally? Where did I say that competition is fair? I said competition is tough! Many people go to the BSZS for other reasons than to win. Do you think that from around 3000 entries last year, every single person that entered thought their dog is going to be the ONE? If your dog has never been in the top ranks at the locals and you still go, what will your chances be realistically? But those people still go! They go there and show their dogs for the experience, to mingle, to network, to sell dogs, to buy dogs, to see dogs, to see people, to be seen, to have a good time, to bitch a little, or a lot, to meet with people from far away that all flock to the event so that they can have a good time and meet up with as many people as possible that a regular trip would never allow them too. The list is endless. It is a sport. You participate because you are passionate about it. You participate because you want to be part of it, because you enjoy it. Winning is the icing, with chocolate sprinkles. Placing in the first ring is still the icing. Placing in the second ring is still the icing. Placing lower was still worth the trip for most, because they were there. Being there was exciting! There are very few that go home bitter. Fewer still stay bitter...