Just another Sport Dog - Page 16

nothing in the standard say thou all shall breed showlines and pretend they can compete in IPO trails as well,

the sport people say showlines cant be sportdogs, me say most sportdogs cannot be LE dogs or must be detection only

look at the KNPV titled longhair BM put up in some topic, you want to take him into  a barfight

 

you might want to check in with LE on your island and see what they have to say about lack of civil agression in certain lines that are offered to them, 

I won't comment on LE dogs on my island as long as a guy in it happens to be a breeder as well and always seems to fail every other pup that is not linked to his private kennel.

Fact is if you want to leave a legacy and get international respect by the masses then you better be breeding for the podium in show or work.

Gustav.... what you write - indeed has happened ... still is happening more so ... as you described.... But I will piggyback your post , to say... now this is already gone the same route in the malinois too . Probably there will be those that debate this , as some will take a debating position with your view. All that I can say : there are people well versed in understanding , analyzing , fully comprehending canines and breeds themselves ..
Gustav ... One factor Duke frequently refers to in his commentaries is genetics.. And he makes such an understated reference .Genetics is key . yes training INFLUENCES but ywe cannot change awhat a dog or is not , yes ? If people don't understand , as Duke discusses, if they don't understand canines , it is like spitting into the wind to have certain discussions . A share your frustration in these types of conversations.
I just saw a new thread regarding drives and neves in breeding. I didn't comment.. because ..... the person , if true about the breeder saying this ... tells me either the breeder has no idea what he/she is doing or this question has been made up by the OP . WHY ... because again genetics... once the innate, genetically predispositions / traits for a canine , to do specific work is lost geneticallly , it is almost impossible to breed with the reult of having put them back. So ,given what I just wrote... perhaps if the people truly understood this , then they would see why you say and write what you just did without debate. Poinant post Gustav.

Kinda funny that a lot of "Sportdog" breeders almost exclusively sell the PD departments. Can't be all that bad.... and even worse that one of the biggest stateside suppliers of Police Dogs has very little aggression but prey and possession in his dogs that is so high that it's scary. No aggression or Civil dog needed when you've got that. But hey, what do we know. We are all just stupid trying to find validation.
 

B E
What you write has validity too. But in perspective ......part of the whole picture ....what I write about training i. if one puts descriptions into categories while training dogs, you will create problems . Well that concept holds true to LE dogs. .

Through the past 40 to 30 years , yes many police have and lean to high prey GS. . However , refrain to much in thinking in catgories. The reasons are many for what you write ... but pat of a big picture . legalities have changed , the needs have changed. For example , currently I live in a very rural town .. Like the 60's TV show Andy Griffith in Mayberry . hardly a jay walker let alone high crime. yes a high prey dog would siut this area but where I grew up in a metropolitan city where in my nieghborhood there were drive by shootings.. A high prey dog would get run over ..not like the Tactical GS they need and have.

But B E ... I want to share with you something : and I prepare myself for the argument... the mind of the GD has been significantly changed in generality . I side step a dissertation on this . Suffice : For example what many police think are great civil dogs are really over aggressive GS with poor mentality, very poor genetics for what once was very high quality sound discerning GS. ! This is genetic based. The people that bred for gs through the years have pushed them out so fast for the commercial aspect with disregard for the breeding .Not all ... but this is more common than anyone realizes or has thought. So for police and with current lititgation ... is it worth the risk for these kind of GS ? As I wrote NOT ALL , there many good breeders still .... but it is a business !! What Duke has written about how hard it is to find certain gs... believe me ... he is spot on ~. Does anyone keep stats .. no .. But all that I can say is : in;ess you afre around a lot OR you know the players in the know.. as an average person you may never ever be able ypo distinguish the truth and reality of what is going on in the GS World. IMOp people like Duke , Gustave ... they are experienced , I would bet been around for a while .. so I would give a little bit of consideration to their words ... not saying eveybody has to agree. but I am saying , because been there ,done that .the average person will never see what goes on behind the scenes.

you see VK there lies the problem,we are not seeking fame and respect from the masses, we are seeking out good dogs, in the end what does really matter, unknown 18 year old boys fighting a war for your safety, or mike tyson winning or losing another million dollar fight

Duke my point was some are pushing that extreme and its a good thing they exist, the problem is when others blindly follow without putting in the prerequisite experience and know how.

I am sure the extreme podium folks are not thinking about police dogs, they rightly doing their own thing.

VK, I dont have a problem with people selecting the best dog for show only, did that long time, but than dont pretend they can be used for jobs that desire other qualities

same goes for sportdogs of today, I enjoy watching and working with good trainers, but again dont pretend they are suitable for a job that require other qualities

see it as in horsebreeding, the dutch horses are strong and respected worldwide, but trough breeding and selection, some lines are better in jumping, other lines in dressage and others in speed or endurance,

now one or two might function well in other discipline, but most will be best in what they are bred fore, the ones that fale are good for recreational use, same as with GSD

now if you are making recreational use the standart and expect to get horses from there to exell in one of the top disciplines you are setting yourself up for faillure

BE, I don't think anyone is stupid. Maybe you know a lot more about procuring LE dogs than I do....LE depts will acquire dogs from many sources. So what you say I am sure is correct in limited degrees. It still doesn't change the need for the breed to retain the type dog I described in my post. If that makes you lose respect for me, so be it. I mean when people can read my post and come to conclusion that I am saying show or sport people should breed FOR LE dogs, I stop engaging said individuals.
Folks, can believe whatever they hear, see, or want to believe about the breed. We all have opinions based on our experiences....

Duke I know guys that have spent their whole life trying to do a 700lb deadlift, gave up everything that didn't help them achieve that. Pretty much nobody else in the world cares.

Are you going to say these deadlift freaks are really ruining triathlon because they are not developing an all round athlete.

You wanna deadlift, then deadlift. You wanna be a triathlete then be one.

You want breed show dogs and sport dogs for the podium so be it. Just like you want police dogs go breed them. The top level sport dogs have proven to be a decent place to look for police dogs, surely nobody disputes that. If you can't find what you want there, look somewhere else but don't blame the show and sport crowd for not supplying the dog YOU want.

Pretty obvious the gsd breed is a bunch of specialist sub breeds....and pet lines.

Whining is not going to reverse that, you have to fit to reality not try fit reality to you.