Basic Obedience.. - Page 2

A dog crabbing (curling around the handler) is not desired in SchH either and will be docked for it in trial....in AKC the same will likely happen but it's not disqualifyable.

Not sure about the touching (tight heeling) but if the dog isn't impeding the handlers movement I don't think it would be hammered too much by an AKC judge.

It is much different than SchH OB so you have to train in a small ring and make sure your dog is acclimated to having crowds of people very close.  The heeling pattern is much tighter (you don't heel very far before you are turning, stopping, starting change of pace etc..) so you would have to train for it but a dog trained in SchH would convert easily if he is acclimated to the environment and trial conditions, IMO. 

If you go right to the SchH training field into an AKC trial ring your dog probably won't do well.  But starting his training in drive you cannot lose...if you decide on AKC later you can always tone it down a bit...but if you start like you would AKC you would likely have to work on building drive and bringing the dog "UP".

I have competed in AKC OB and Rally with my SchH dog, alot of people commented on his flashy and attentive heeling and quick movements (almost like they never saw it before)....and in such a small area you really can't show off a flashy heeler.

Back when I was a novice I had a bitch who I trialed in AKC Open A for longer than I care to admit...she kept getting NQ'd for something different.  I started doing SchH and learning the motivational way of training and rewarding with a toy...I started doing this with her and she loved it, she wen't from being flat and bored with the training for the same open a excersises to getting amped doing different things as well as working for a ball/tug.  A month after I started SchH type OB I trailed her in AKC again and she qualified in the next two trials and finished her title.

..GSDfan....Your videos are very interesting and your dog looks great, thank you for posting them...How old is your dog?...Your Quote.."If you plan on doing SchH at all....I wouldn't do any obedience until the foundation is laid in bitework. Dogs who have too much OB are many times difficult to start in bitework......".foundation in bit work "is a foreign language to me...is this something you need a 'helper' to do? 
      
           Also, your Quote.....Can you explain what you mean by this comment? Thanks...

'If you only plan on doing the SchH OB phase or AKC I would start how I would start a SchH dog...as Don said if you train like you would SchH, AKC will be easy. "


Sunsilver...The AKC class I attended was very particular about tucked sits, kick out stands, folded downs..

zdog.....Are the Sch dogs that are wrapped around the front of the handler out of proper position?


waleed....Do you mean Fun or Funny..? Are you laughing with me or at me...LOL>..

           Very good.....Ignore my last post ...You all answered my questions ...Thanks.......Except waleed..lol...

R1,
        In heeling the dog walks and runs at your side. The most important thing to
look at is his right front foot. Where is it touching down at. The head can be pointing up ward
with the muzzle slightly turned into you. But this is  a heeling exercises and if you start with
observing other good dogs heeling, watch the dog's right front foot.

Here is Jogi Zank with his big ass feet doing some heeling with Eric  vom sportpark.

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/46287/Eric%20vom%20Sportpark/

.."If you plan on doing SchH at all....I wouldn't do any obedience until the foundation is laid in bitework. Dogs who have too much OB are many times difficult to start in bitework

I've seen many dogs raised as pets, had pet OB training and taught manners (don't bark at people, don't use your mouth, don't pull on the leash etc.)....now their owners decide they want to do SchH.

The dogs are reserved and obedient...when the helpers try to bring them out, get them to bark and tease them to chase and grab a tug/bite pillow with their mouth it either doesn't happen or takes much more than it would if the dog wasn't taught to be so obedient.  Pulling at the end of the leash, jumping around, barking and grabbing things with their mouth pretty much is the opposite of what the dog has learned to do until  this point...now it is ok?...it is conflicting to the dog.

The easiest is a dog taught no manners...obnoxious and full of piss and vinegar.

After the dog is started in bitework...has progressed to the sleeve and his grips are developed...good and strong, and he is confident in the work...then you start obedience.  This is pretty much the standard operating procedure in the sport.


'If you only plan on doing the SchH OB phase or AKC I would start how I would start a SchH dog...as Don said if you train like you would SchH, AKC will be easy. "

Until you hit the utility level in AKC....SchH OB parallels AKC excersises pretty close.  You would only need to add a couple things for your dog to be ready for the open class.  It is hard to explain....but right before I got my males SchH 1 I trialed him in AKC's open class...it was easy 3 trials 3 Q's and a couple ribbons, much easier than I rememberd with my previous dog I only titled in AKC.  Off leash control, energy in the work, speed and responsiveness...it all came much easier.  Read my previous post about my bitch too. 

Just saw your nevermind post...too late lol

GSDfan...Your post is very informative...I was planning on doing just the opposite of what you are suggesting..I was going to get him well mannered and properly behaved and then do Schutzhund.....NOT...lol....Do you think I could keep Prince motivated for bite work by playing tug and building that type of aggressive playing?...Kind of like you were doing in your video? Or do I need a professional helper to do this type of bite work?.....Sorry for all the questions, when you get tired of replying just ignore me, I will not hold it against you..lol..lol..Ruger1

Mel I am kinda like you, that I do not try to do too much with a puppy in terms of manners, etc. But I am a bit different. From the day the pup comes home, I am starting bitework. Everyday we do a bit to build drive, grips, targeting, etc. Because I do that, I don't feel that doing some motivational obedience will hurt and we leave it there. Obedience doesn't go beyond the session. Outside of the session, I do not ask for manners, etc. I will let the pup be a pup until we are ready to finish. By then, the dog should know most of the commands through heavy motivation. To be honest though, I wouldn't do this with a young pup unless it had high drive for the food or toy.

Do you think I could keep Prince motivated for bite work by playing tug and building that type of aggressive playing?...

Yes and I would recommend it.  It is lots of fun for the dog, builds drive, and it builds a closer bond (more useful when you aquire a dog as an adult).  No need for professional help but if you are having trouble you might want to get a few videos....I learned by watching other trainers so don't really know of any good ones for your level... I like Ivan Balabanov's video The "game" but I think the dogs they are working with are further along in ob (not sure it's been a while since I've seen it)...but if nothing else you can still watch the video to learn how to move, deliver the tug, timing etc. http://trainperview.com/dog-training-videos/detail.aspx?id=21 .... 

make sure you make the dog miss sometimes.... and when you give it to him don't put it in his mouth...make him come up for it (common mistake by people just learning it).  And the only reason I was outing my dog in the video was because she was at that point in bitework.  With your dog I would either use two tugs or lift him up by his collar so his front feet are off the ground until he drops it....then steal it off the ground and play again (called choking off...it keeps the dog in drive).

I agree with you Don a little motivational OB doesn't hurt if the dogs drives are strong. 

I'd just make sure to keep it part of the game and stay away from corrections.

What you do with your dog all depends on what age they are...and what they bring to the party...
Talking about doing any work with a puppy or young dog...the best advice is to do Drive Promotion...Ball Drive...Food Drive...etc.
And this is what Don the King is talking about...You don't teach any exercises to a puppy or young dog...
And some people think that you can't do any Obedience before you start the Protection Phase...and this used to be true when you basically used Compulsion to teach the Ob...But when you use Motivational Techniques you can start it any time you'd like...Use Play Drive...and Food Drive...
The more you introduce a puppy to when they're young...the more ahead of the game you are...But you MUST introduce things correctly...Such as...As Don mentioned...Doing rag work with a puppy...It's a great idea but you what to introduce it correctly...Promote the Chase Drive...and let him win...Then begin to make the puppy take the rag with a full grip...and teach him to hang onto it or he'll lose it...
Ruger...What classes are you taking now...What is your interest in...Schutzhund or AKC Ob?

~Bob~