Sportism - Page 8

GSDfan I actually mostly agree with your longer post above except your with this:

Now it is nearly impossible to train any kind of protection dog to bite without using some kind of equipment. If you do then most of what you are doing is training a dog to aggressively bark...you are not teaching them to bite or how to bite or to tolerate pressure while biting....you are not teaching them to fight!

 I assure you it is quite possible.  In my system all foundation and default building is done totally without equipment.   the dog never even see any equipment until I am confident that the dog will bite for real = in a civil way. Then the dog sees the suit FOR THE FIRST TIME!   And I send the dog on strange decoy in strange place decoy who is passive . If the dog bites then I know or am quite reasonably sure that the dog  is civil, since they have never seen such equipment, decoy or location/venue.  The sleeve and suite in my civil training has only one purpose and that is  to protect the decoy and dog sees the suite only after most of the civil foundation training is done. Thus when I then introduce to the dog a decoy with equipment then the dog is biting the man  protected by equipment but there is no undesirable association =  necessary condition for the dog to bite.    Where in sport and sportism the dog is "TARGETING" the equipment and  is taught to target the equipment and that in my humble opinion is wrong and counter-productive and illogical  to development of civil dog.  Now I train the way I have described it and some do not like it and that is OK> Do what ever you do and I'll do what ever I do and I am poestin this here only for people who want to consider what I do. There are plenty of them and I am then blad to tech them. I am not here to convince anybody of anything.  

I will not go into prey and defense civil and sport bite here and now and if it is necessary to teach the dog how they suppose to bite and so on.  I'll may open a separate thread on this topic. 

 Prager  Hans 

 

 

Interesting Prager, so in your system why does the decoy have to act so submissive to keep the dog engaged and feed the slipped suit?

Just trying to get the huge difference between yr theory and yr practice.

Gustav:
@ Prager...where are these good dogs that I don't know where to find? I have owned/trained DDR, West working, Belgium, Czech( Jinopo, Aritar Bastet, Apanti Rei ), mixes of all the above......where are these dogs?
GSDFAN is a superb trainer of both sport and LE dogs. She is also one of the better decoys on the east coast. I have trained with her and seen her train with top IPO folks, top PSA folks, and top LE folks. They all respect her ( both her dogs and her skill in handling and decoying)....very very few people commenting on this thread have her exposure or experience in all three of these phases,imo.

Where such dogs are? All over the place. I have mentioned where they are and I have full f-king kennel of them . Come and see.

As far as ability of training and decoying of GSDfan I have posted no judgement on those so I do not know what you are talking about. I was berated by her that I am training wrong way. Fair enough. we have difference of opinions. So what? And then to show me her is by you defined as a civil training which in my most honest opinion to me me is this play-game where dog bites from one sleeve to another and calls it civil training. I have no problem what so ever with such scenario and I used to do it myself too . But I do not care what she things if that is is her opinion, and even though I disagree, I am peachy ducky with it. But I assume maybe wrongly, that there are actually people who want to learn something about civil dog training. And strictly for their benefit I am saying that video presented as example of civil training is absolutely not training dog to be civil. I was even nice and commented positively on the dog itself and the relationship she has with the dog and that dog may be civil, but as far as the video goes as an example of the civil training that is total bogus. All I am saying is that if someone shows me video like the one we are talking about as a demonstration of a training of a civil dog then I call BS and that. That is regardless of what other training this person does and of capabilities of the dog on the video or if they won Nationals of the Globe earth.
Same as Joanro video. There I am not judging the dog, the trainer, the handler, or the decoy. All I am saying is that such training is not an example of civil training which that is how it was originally presented Or maybe i have mistakenly read it as such presentation. After the further explanation which Joanro gave I may say OK the dog is civil if Joanro says so. I do not like her and she does not like me, but I would not never peg her for a lair and I respect her dogs and breeding and even her even though... I do not like her. But I will stress that I have never judged the dog, or the trainer, or handler, but I am judging the set up of scenario - which was not civil set up. I am sorry. To let the dog carry suit may be ok for myriads of what ever legitimate reasons which I would not contradict but it is not and example of civil scenario.

Prager Hans

vk please stop addressing me. I will not ever answer your posts. You are not interested in learning. I have learned that long time ago.

ok Hans so once you send the dog onto that passive decoy and he bites and you know he's civil.

and he's never bitten anything before.

Then what ... because I will bet money that dog did not stay on the bite and did not take any kind of pressure or even movement.

No grip work, no confidence building, no targeting (bicep, tricep, forearm, legs)...just willy nilly bite anywhere?

So after you develop this dog (whatever you do after this civil test)...and you offer him slipped sleeve then tell him to bite the decoy...a dog started this way 100% of the time will choose the decoy over equipment?

And the last video I shared I never said it was an example of "civil training" or any kind of instruction. It is a man targeting exercise I do a lot at Police in service and seminars. I merely shared all the videos to show proof that my "sport dog" will not default to equipment as you have said a sport trained dog will do. Nothign more nothing less.

 

Hans also the only thing I criticized is if your ability to train a dog to bite without equipment is impossible or dangerously hindered if equipment is used in a sport-like foundation, then there was something wrong with the dog or your training. Your first post criticized my methods and it was merely a reply to that...so behaving like I was somehow being malicious in my "criticism" (aka rebuttal to your post) is rather juvenile.

I am glad you have success doing it your way, but you are so much in the minority...there are hundreds of thousands of working police dogs around the world getting real street bites who have had foundations in "sport" (in my experience the best come from KNVP or PSA type foundations).
 

And the only one of my video's I said was civil work was the first. Because that was her first bite on a hidden sleeve, prior to that she was only on an IPO sleeve. She bit without hesitation because she is naturally/genetically civil. She was a little growly but she stayed on the grip because she has a good foundation ;-)

 

 

Hans, I said many times that my dog is known to be civil, with zero bite training the dog bit an idiot who thought he had privilege on my home grounds. The dog bit him but came to me when I called him. The videos of my dog were not training, but a test of his fortitude, his nerves, commitment, to find out could he be backed down with pressure. I put him on the back tie first and only time in his life to test with the decoy a short time after the 'incident'....the dog was strong. A year later I tested him again when the decoy had time to come to my place. I sent the dog after the decoy into the back of a pickup onto slick bed liner. Dog had never before been asked to jump into the back of a truck,I had him on a long line, no rehearsal, the dog was free to bale out if he chose...instead, he jumped into the truck after the man and bit him on inner thigh full pushing into the guy's leg--hard enough to hurt the guy, he drew his arm over the dog's head, the dog transfered from the thigh bite to the arm---the decoy then slipped the jacket. I called the dog to me, dog carried jacket and missed the edge of the tailgate since he was not familiar with it and fell off, still quietly holding the jacket with no thrashing or growling...only deliberate calmness throughout the attack...you can say that wasn't the signs of a civil dog if you want, fine, but I was testing the dog's commitment to fight and nerves. But I am pretty certain, if the guy wasn't wearing the bite suit, he would have had more than a bad bruise on his thigh from the dog's grip.
I have not done any more in the way of bite work with the dog, he's mine and i know what he is made of. 

@ GSD Fan - shaking bottles and screaming in the dogs face, if that is your yard stick re pressure - LAME.

Your bitch, dealt in the vid what was put in front of it - good dog. (black female)

Absolutely irrelevant, which drive a dog engages in when civil - surely you know that?

Your scenario was not civil, presentation of the body part was a joke, your dog dealt with a routine.

Once again - your dog may well be extremely civil - however if you are gonna blow your own trumpet so hard - back it up with something which is credible, and not a vid which in civil terms is EXTREMELY LAME.

Regards
Gee

Gee, she was demonstrating transition work from sleeve to no sleeve, which was perfectly executed.

You are extrapolating.