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by Ryanhaus on 27 May 2013 - 10:05
It could have easily been your nerves wearing on the dog.
I have given in to the thought of being nervous at trials and being more relaxed.
I finally got my first BH and I was the one keeping a tight leash and holding my dog back,
I was doing the exact thing I tell other people not to do, the judge even told me give him
a loose lead, loosen his collar......it was me that was all up tight, not the dog.
Kinda like you need to find your "Happy place" at the trials
As far as conditioning to gun fire, feeding time and loud noises go hand & hand
I have given in to the thought of being nervous at trials and being more relaxed.
I finally got my first BH and I was the one keeping a tight leash and holding my dog back,
I was doing the exact thing I tell other people not to do, the judge even told me give him
a loose lead, loosen his collar......it was me that was all up tight, not the dog.
Kinda like you need to find your "Happy place" at the trials
As far as conditioning to gun fire, feeding time and loud noises go hand & hand
by Botanica37 on 27 May 2013 - 10:05
And that is exactly what I am trying to understand...what is about the gun shots specifically. You know when cars/trucks make a loud noise that sounds like gun shot? He doesn't react to those. He has not reacted to any loud noises in his 18 months with me, except those 2 times.
Jen, no matter what the outcome, Chaos is not going anywhere :) he is my buddy, and we will work through this. I am merely trying to understand the issue, is it me (I don't think I was that nervous, but my perception of my mental state could be different than his), is it him, is it us...just something I am trying to settle in my head, so I can figure out a plan.
Jen, no matter what the outcome, Chaos is not going anywhere :) he is my buddy, and we will work through this. I am merely trying to understand the issue, is it me (I don't think I was that nervous, but my perception of my mental state could be different than his), is it him, is it us...just something I am trying to settle in my head, so I can figure out a plan.
by Blitzen on 27 May 2013 - 11:05
Does your dog have first or second degree relatives that have had the same or similar issues and/or produced it in their progeny?
by beetree on 27 May 2013 - 11:05
Botanica,
I think you are wise to want to understand what you saw. What you don't want is a repeat of such a strong reaction, and I think Slamdunc gave great advice when he cautioned you to proceed slowly.
I think when it comes to sound sensitivity, dogs will make distinctions between certain sources.
I think you are wise to want to understand what you saw. What you don't want is a repeat of such a strong reaction, and I think Slamdunc gave great advice when he cautioned you to proceed slowly.
I think when it comes to sound sensitivity, dogs will make distinctions between certain sources.
by Botanica37 on 27 May 2013 - 11:05
Blitzen, I have no idea, I don't think so, but Jen is in better position to answer that one.
Beetree, agreed. I am going to take it extra slow. Thank you to everyone who responded. I will let you know how we do.
Beetree, agreed. I am going to take it extra slow. Thank you to everyone who responded. I will let you know how we do.
by Jenni78 on 27 May 2013 - 11:05
Proceeding slowly is a good idea, regardless.
I didn't mean I thought you were going to sell the dog. I was just making the point that trying to understand it is great, to a point, but you'll likely never totally understand exactly why that time was different- was it your reaction, was it that he was lying on his side, relaxed, and startled, is this a sign of more issues to come, etc. Since you'll never likely understand it fully, don't spend too much time second-guessing things you thought you knew about him and instead move forward, paying closer attention to your reactions and his and you'll probably see a lot more than you're expecting. Sometimes an eye opener is good- it catches us off guard and makes us pay attention and stop taking things for granted w/our dogs. Dogs evolve and change as much as we do, imho.
Paternal great grandsire has been said to produce noise sensitivity on occasion, though I have not seen this firsthand and am only repeating what I've been told. So, let's not cyber-crucify him. To my knowledge, there has not been an issue w/noise, but if it's true that Quasy could bring it, then that's far enough back you might just get the occasional one, so just because there aren't any others doesn't mean there's not a genetic component. The stories I heard were more widespread noise issues, storms, pots and pans, etc. but again, this is hearsay.
I didn't mean I thought you were going to sell the dog. I was just making the point that trying to understand it is great, to a point, but you'll likely never totally understand exactly why that time was different- was it your reaction, was it that he was lying on his side, relaxed, and startled, is this a sign of more issues to come, etc. Since you'll never likely understand it fully, don't spend too much time second-guessing things you thought you knew about him and instead move forward, paying closer attention to your reactions and his and you'll probably see a lot more than you're expecting. Sometimes an eye opener is good- it catches us off guard and makes us pay attention and stop taking things for granted w/our dogs. Dogs evolve and change as much as we do, imho.
Paternal great grandsire has been said to produce noise sensitivity on occasion, though I have not seen this firsthand and am only repeating what I've been told. So, let's not cyber-crucify him. To my knowledge, there has not been an issue w/noise, but if it's true that Quasy could bring it, then that's far enough back you might just get the occasional one, so just because there aren't any others doesn't mean there's not a genetic component. The stories I heard were more widespread noise issues, storms, pots and pans, etc. but again, this is hearsay.
by RLHAR on 27 May 2013 - 12:05
Botanica,
I say the following in the spirit of wanting to help give you another perspective on this. I also agree with Slamdunc's suggestions for Chaos but this is definitely a situation of 'it takes two to tango'.
Believe me, if anyone suffers from trial nerves, it's me. The judges are always having to remind me to breath when I'm out there and I've put BHs on three different dogs and titled two at this point. Trials just stress me out so I'm always having to be conscious of myself and my actions since as the saying goes 'it all goes down the leash'.
I was at your BH trial. I saw you do the obedience and I was actually right beside you when you were working your traffic. You were a bundle of nerves. I don't know if you realized it but every time Chaos so much as twitched an ear, shifted his hips or turned his head, you were correcting him. "Leave it" "No" "Sit" "Leave it" "Sit" "Leave it" "No." It was an almost constant litany from you and from a casual observer (Chaos was right by my ankle) the dog did not need those corrections. He was behaving exactly as he should have been in those circumstances. He was under control, in a situation where a lot of people were around, other dogs were doing their traffic portions and he was just being a dog, watching but almost every other breath, you were correcting him.
I'm NOT trying to intimate you're a bad handler or anything like that. What you were doing was pure trial nerves but if you were that keyed up, no wonder Chaos was also on edge. He doesn't understand why you're so nervous and as it sounds like you and he have a close bond and he looks like a very intelligent, alert dog, he probably spent much of the day trying to figure out what there was to be concerned about.
All in all Chaos looked really good in his BH, his obedience in particular could really be something spectacular but you were so tense and so stiff, his worry about you was palatable. Along with working with Chaos and the gun, if you can find a way to have some fun out on the trial field you two are going to be an awesome team.
I say the following in the spirit of wanting to help give you another perspective on this. I also agree with Slamdunc's suggestions for Chaos but this is definitely a situation of 'it takes two to tango'.
Believe me, if anyone suffers from trial nerves, it's me. The judges are always having to remind me to breath when I'm out there and I've put BHs on three different dogs and titled two at this point. Trials just stress me out so I'm always having to be conscious of myself and my actions since as the saying goes 'it all goes down the leash'.
I was at your BH trial. I saw you do the obedience and I was actually right beside you when you were working your traffic. You were a bundle of nerves. I don't know if you realized it but every time Chaos so much as twitched an ear, shifted his hips or turned his head, you were correcting him. "Leave it" "No" "Sit" "Leave it" "Sit" "Leave it" "No." It was an almost constant litany from you and from a casual observer (Chaos was right by my ankle) the dog did not need those corrections. He was behaving exactly as he should have been in those circumstances. He was under control, in a situation where a lot of people were around, other dogs were doing their traffic portions and he was just being a dog, watching but almost every other breath, you were correcting him.
I'm NOT trying to intimate you're a bad handler or anything like that. What you were doing was pure trial nerves but if you were that keyed up, no wonder Chaos was also on edge. He doesn't understand why you're so nervous and as it sounds like you and he have a close bond and he looks like a very intelligent, alert dog, he probably spent much of the day trying to figure out what there was to be concerned about.
All in all Chaos looked really good in his BH, his obedience in particular could really be something spectacular but you were so tense and so stiff, his worry about you was palatable. Along with working with Chaos and the gun, if you can find a way to have some fun out on the trial field you two are going to be an awesome team.
by Jenni78 on 27 May 2013 - 12:05
RLHAR, that takes guts to post that. 
Botanica, please don't take her post in a negative light. That may well be the most helpful post on this topic; it doesn't get much better than someone who observed firsthand.
Botanica, please don't take her post in a negative light. That may well be the most helpful post on this topic; it doesn't get much better than someone who observed firsthand.
by Slamdunc on 27 May 2013 - 13:05
It's my opinion that labels are not productive. Labels only help you decide if you're going to dump the dog or work with it
I have to disagree with this. I believe that objectively looking at a dog and noting it's strengths and weaknesses is very important for any dog owner. I think it is critical for someone that wants to work or compete with their dog. There is no perfect dog even my dog has a few minor things that I'd like to change, but I doubt I'll ever find a better dog to work. When their is a temperament issue, character flaw of physical defect it must be noted and addressed. I find way to many people make excuses for their dog's flaws and rationalize them or ignore them. Regardless of what the issue is, it exists and must be noted and labeled. Is it a big deal? Probably not in the scheme of things. Would I stop working the dog and not correct the issue? No, absolutely not. I would continue to address any issue the dog had and guide the dog through it. Would I ever stick my head in the sand and ignore the issue and not objectively identify the problem? No, I want to analyze all of my dogs and know all of their strengths and weaknesses. This is how I develop a lifestyle and training program for my dogs. I think everyone needs to do this. The fact that hte OP sees an issue is great and is on the way to work through it.
With all that said, it appears to be a genetic issue. That is only important to see how to progress and fix the problem, and of course for future breeding considerations of this dog or relatives. A perfect dog otherwise with genetic temperament issues such as this or fear of thunder or other phobias is not a dog I would consider for breeding. Not a knock against this dog at all, I have owned many great dogs that I have never bred. I think a dog has to be superior in most every way before it is bred. But, that is me and really not what most breeders do.
I would start slowly with the dog in a field doing it's favorite activity like a two ball game. I would have a third person a few hundred yards away with a blank gun. I would have a second person watching the dog play. When the dog is in drive and having fun the second person waves to the shooter to find one round and watches the reaction. The handler does not need to know when the rounds are about to be fired. If the reaction is good the intensity of the game is heightened and the "shooter" moves slightly closer. I would only do this 2 or 3 times in one session. I'd end the gunfire and really play vigorously with the dog and leave the field. I would distance my car form the training field while shots are fired for other dogs. If things did not go well on the first round I would increase the distance and try again. This may be a long process and will require some effort.
Hope that helps.
I have to disagree with this. I believe that objectively looking at a dog and noting it's strengths and weaknesses is very important for any dog owner. I think it is critical for someone that wants to work or compete with their dog. There is no perfect dog even my dog has a few minor things that I'd like to change, but I doubt I'll ever find a better dog to work. When their is a temperament issue, character flaw of physical defect it must be noted and addressed. I find way to many people make excuses for their dog's flaws and rationalize them or ignore them. Regardless of what the issue is, it exists and must be noted and labeled. Is it a big deal? Probably not in the scheme of things. Would I stop working the dog and not correct the issue? No, absolutely not. I would continue to address any issue the dog had and guide the dog through it. Would I ever stick my head in the sand and ignore the issue and not objectively identify the problem? No, I want to analyze all of my dogs and know all of their strengths and weaknesses. This is how I develop a lifestyle and training program for my dogs. I think everyone needs to do this. The fact that hte OP sees an issue is great and is on the way to work through it.
With all that said, it appears to be a genetic issue. That is only important to see how to progress and fix the problem, and of course for future breeding considerations of this dog or relatives. A perfect dog otherwise with genetic temperament issues such as this or fear of thunder or other phobias is not a dog I would consider for breeding. Not a knock against this dog at all, I have owned many great dogs that I have never bred. I think a dog has to be superior in most every way before it is bred. But, that is me and really not what most breeders do.
I would start slowly with the dog in a field doing it's favorite activity like a two ball game. I would have a third person a few hundred yards away with a blank gun. I would have a second person watching the dog play. When the dog is in drive and having fun the second person waves to the shooter to find one round and watches the reaction. The handler does not need to know when the rounds are about to be fired. If the reaction is good the intensity of the game is heightened and the "shooter" moves slightly closer. I would only do this 2 or 3 times in one session. I'd end the gunfire and really play vigorously with the dog and leave the field. I would distance my car form the training field while shots are fired for other dogs. If things did not go well on the first round I would increase the distance and try again. This may be a long process and will require some effort.
Hope that helps.
by Jenni78 on 27 May 2013 - 14:05
You "have to disagree" that it's my personal opinion, Jim? LOL.......men....
If you can't see strengths and weaknesses without labeling people or dogs,or judging environment from genetics or whatever, which is IMPOSSIBLE to ascertain as they all work together, my problem is that you're likely to sell both parties short in the long run. When you're in a time crunch and it's a pass or fail situation, then fine. But if it's not, labels cause glass ceilings in just about every case I've ever seen. If you see your dog as a tool and not an individual, perhaps you find labels useful. They certainly make things easier, don't they? I know you enjoy disagreeing with me, even on my own personal opinions, as in this case, LOL, but I truly feel as labels are subjective, they are only important to the one doing the labeling, they mean squat to the dog, and therefore, since this is about the dog, they are not helpful in the next course of action, unless, as I said, you want to decide whether the dog is a keeper or a throwaway, such as in LE or top sport or whatever goal the human has in mind. But in a case where the relationship is key, not the points, I do not find labels helpful. I think I am still allowed an opinion on that...
If rumor that a paternal great- grandsire occasionally produced a sound-sensitive dog is enough for you to decide this is genetic and had nothing to do with environment (RLHAR's post), then good for you. That makes it all neat and tidy, doesn't it? Assuming you're right, has that done the dog a bit of good? Has it done the handler a bit of good? She wasn't going to dump the dog anyway. IF you're planning on dumping a dog who washes out, then knowing WHY might be helpful. I think to know HOW to make sure he goes back to his previously neutral stance on gunfire and doesn't repeat his startle is the key here. Again, my opinion and you may disagree that it's my opinion again if you wish, lol.
I think being super conscious of what RLHAR noted as far as handler behavior, especially with a dog as bonded as this one, is going to be the single biggest factor in making sure he reverts to his previously neutral behavior and doesn't adopt a startle reaction to gunfire in the future.
If you can't see strengths and weaknesses without labeling people or dogs,or judging environment from genetics or whatever, which is IMPOSSIBLE to ascertain as they all work together, my problem is that you're likely to sell both parties short in the long run. When you're in a time crunch and it's a pass or fail situation, then fine. But if it's not, labels cause glass ceilings in just about every case I've ever seen. If you see your dog as a tool and not an individual, perhaps you find labels useful. They certainly make things easier, don't they? I know you enjoy disagreeing with me, even on my own personal opinions, as in this case, LOL, but I truly feel as labels are subjective, they are only important to the one doing the labeling, they mean squat to the dog, and therefore, since this is about the dog, they are not helpful in the next course of action, unless, as I said, you want to decide whether the dog is a keeper or a throwaway, such as in LE or top sport or whatever goal the human has in mind. But in a case where the relationship is key, not the points, I do not find labels helpful. I think I am still allowed an opinion on that...
If rumor that a paternal great- grandsire occasionally produced a sound-sensitive dog is enough for you to decide this is genetic and had nothing to do with environment (RLHAR's post), then good for you. That makes it all neat and tidy, doesn't it? Assuming you're right, has that done the dog a bit of good? Has it done the handler a bit of good? She wasn't going to dump the dog anyway. IF you're planning on dumping a dog who washes out, then knowing WHY might be helpful. I think to know HOW to make sure he goes back to his previously neutral stance on gunfire and doesn't repeat his startle is the key here. Again, my opinion and you may disagree that it's my opinion again if you wish, lol.
I think being super conscious of what RLHAR noted as far as handler behavior, especially with a dog as bonded as this one, is going to be the single biggest factor in making sure he reverts to his previously neutral behavior and doesn't adopt a startle reaction to gunfire in the future.
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